The Cal Nat controversy

[Davis]

This topic was started on a thread about another brand of food.:
http://thepetfoodlist.com/forums/index.php?topic=479.0
I'm continuing it here, where it is more appropriate.

Geff, you could have copied and pasted what you wrote to them into notepad, and then pasted it here.  That is always an option for those online contact pages.  That way you will have a record of what you asked them.

Davis, Yes, I'm aware of this. Just making a point.

Obviously the fact that this food does not have fish is the positive factor for you.  However, in addition to the other things you mentioned that were of concern, I would have a big concern over the following ingredients:  corn gluten meal, soy flour, soy protein isolate.  Those would be enough to cause me to rule out the food entirely, but that's just me. :They scream China, vegetable protein sources, etc.  Blah.  I'd stick with  Cal Nat before I'd feed this.  If the concern about Cal Nat is the fact the one person's tests found trace amounts of toxins, then there is no reason to believe it would not be in a food like this too.  I think you have to consider whether you are really avoiding something in changing, or if you are instead possibly risking  even more.

Davis, My take is that there are more problems then just 1 test coming back with Tylenol. If you haven't, I'd suggest reading Offy's summary on Itchmo
http://www.itchmoforums.com/news-recall-related/recap-gathered-information-on-innova-pictures-posts-tests-t1455.0.html

& at least skimming the posts.
http://www.itchmoforums.com/empty-t1028.0.html
(this one has 72 pages as of 8/4; there is another good summery on page 72 by Donna (PFR07PS):
"1.  Something has/is making pets sick.  It is seen with subclinical symptoms and not life threatening illnesses and it does not necessarily show up on routine lab work.
2.  There are production problems with string, embedded hair, unknown embedded chunks, embedded blue rubbery substance, blue/green embedded chunks, etc.  These findings have been dismissed.
3.  There are variations in what is told to consumers regarding the embedded objects – vitamin premix, flaxseed (I have not heard that one), connective tissue, etc.
4.  They claim there is/has been only ONE complaint."

The contamination appears to be quite wide spread

[Davis]

Davis, Yes, I'm aware of this. Just making a point.

I knew you were probably aware of it.  It was just a reminder, because I can't tell you the number of times I wished I would have copied my inquiries before I sent them on those online email pages.  I always forget.

Davis, My take is that there are more problems then just 1 test coming back with Tylenol. If you haven't, I'd suggest reading Offy's summary on Itchmo

The contamination appears to be quite wide spread

Yes, I know Geff.  I have been following that thread from the beginning and have read most all of it already, even though the time it takes to do so is very annoying.  They keep repeating themselves.  Here are my thoughts: Two things are obvious.  Natura has had a very bad run of food within a certain period of time, and they have handled it very poorly.  But that is not to say that the same could and would not happen with any other company.  I think that is my point.  Given the same scenario, how are we to know any of the rest of them are any different? 

I am looking for another food for all the reasons you mentioned, although I am doubtful about a number of factors.  The one thing that is the most obvious is their bad management of this whole affair.  I don't think they ever expected to be on the hot seat like this.  They were taken off guard and are not handling it well.  I have lost my respect for them for that reason, and also for their lack of quality control and refusal to act accordingly.  However, I am not one to buy, hook, line, and sinker, everything I read on a forum or on the internet.  I keep an open mind.  And last, my cat has not exhibiting any "subclinical" signs of illness whatsoever, neither have I seen anything unusual about his Cal Nat food...no chunks or strings.  In fact, he is doing better than he has for a long time.  First and foremost, I have to take into account my own experiences before I jump on the bandwagon of a bunch of people I do not know.  That means I don't fully trust anyone -- not Natura, nor a bunch of cult-like posters.  That is not to say I don't take everything they say into serious account, but in the end I trust only myself..

[Geff]

Reply moved:

I agree that 72 pages of posts is too much to digest! I also agree that few if any of the other companies are any better. And i agree that the worst part is that Natura appears to be engaged in a cover up.

I'm going to continue feeding the 6 pounds or so i have left that was manufactured in 2006, as kitty is doing great on it.

It's early October or so that concerns me when we run out. I think the 3 stores in my city that sell Natura are our of pre-recall bags. I know for certain that 1 is, I think I bought the last 2 bags from store #2 about a month ago, & store #3 is probably worth a look, but I don't like them; in the middle of April's recalls they took an attitude that my recall related safety concerns were not valid.

[jenny]

What is so bad is Natura's handling of the situation.  I was supporting them early on and skeptical of the whole poison thing.  But I have called the company myself just asking basic nutrition questions about their Innova canned cat food and my inquiries were handled with the same indifference that those asking about the itcho situation were.   I was told a couple of times by Veronica that she would send me information and despite several follow up emails and phone calls I never received the promised information.  Their customer service is what is killing them here.  So, when I made the decision to switch dry foods for my dry addicted IBD cat, I chose Wellness Core over Natura's EVO (the EVO has a nasty powdery residue too).    And I was going to try the canned Cal Nat for the same cat and have decided against it.   What is too bad is that my IBD cat is now 'addicted' to their Innova canned cat food and does not seem  to want to change.  I will however continue to look for better options as I do not want to support this company - at least for now.

I, as many other regular itchmo posters, think there is a clear quality issue with some of the batches of food and believe those batches should be recalled.  I really don't know what to make of the poison issue - so won't even cover that.  However, the evidence is very clear from itcho that there is a quality issue with some of the food.  There is just too much evidence to the contrary.  And keep in mind, that those very same itchmo posters that you call 'cult like' are the very same that helped uncover things during the heat of the recalls.  I applaud their efforts even if I do not always agree.  I think they deserve our respect.

I agree that this can, and did, happen to other pet food companies.  The test is how they handle the situation when it does.  And Natura has been awful.  I am betting other companies are also watching the itchmo thread and are hopefully learning from their mistakes.

[jenny]

Geff, I know you have been looking for alternative pet foods that do not contain seafood.  I'm not sure what your other requirements are. 

My vet had mentioned to me that they could order some sort of prescription dry chicken and rice for my IBD cat.  I had thought it was IVD but I can't find any such food in the Royal Canin web page.  I checked the other brands the vet uses and couldn't find any listed on those either.  But maybe worth asking your vet about.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what brands you have tried.  I'm scanning through a document I threw together at the beginning of the recalls and I see the following with no fish:
Felidae Chicken & Rice Dry
Eagle Pack Holistic Select Duck & Oatmeal

[jenny]

FYI - Offy had to move the summary link from itchmo - ran out of room for uploading pictures.  Here is the new site:
http://offplanet.50megs.com/main.htm

[Geff]

Geff, I know you have been looking for alternative pet foods that do not contain seafood.  I'm not sure what your other requirements are. 

My vet had mentioned to me that they could order some sort of prescription dry chicken and rice for my IBD cat.  I had thought it was IVD but I can't find any such food in the Royal Canin web page.  I checked the other brands the vet uses and couldn't find any listed on those either.  But maybe worth asking your vet about.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what brands you have tried.  I'm scanning through a document I threw together at the beginning of the recalls and I see the following with no fish:
Felidae Chicken & Rice Dry
Eagle Pack Holistic Select Duck & Oatmeal

Hi Jenny - Thank you.  Ironically Royal Canin indoor was what we were on when the recall started & we got off it immediately. There is a class action suit pending in Canada regarding RC's prescription diets. At the time what bothered me the most was RC's attitude when I contacted them for information.

Kitty also reacts to one or more of the herbs/vegtables/fruits is some of the diets. We tried Felidae C&R, he was very allergic to SOMETHING in there.

I haven't looked at Eagle Pack, thank you for the suggestion!

[Geff]

FYI - Offy had to move the summary link from itchmo - ran out of room for uploading pictures.  Here is the new site:
http://offplanet.50megs.com/main.htm

Wow. Thanks for letting us know!

[Geff]

Geff, I know you have been looking for alternative pet foods that do not contain seafood.  I'm not sure what your other requirements are. 

My vet had mentioned to me that they could order some sort of prescription dry chicken and rice for my IBD cat.  I had thought it was IVD but I can't find any such food in the Royal Canin web page.  I checked the other brands the vet uses and couldn't find any listed on those either.  But maybe worth asking your vet about.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what brands you have tried.  I'm scanning through a document I threw together at the beginning of the recalls and I see the following with no fish:
Felidae Chicken & Rice Dry
Eagle Pack Holistic Select Duck & Oatmeal

Turns out i had looked at Eagle Pack before. All of the dry cat foods have at least 1 of the suspected allergens that my cat is reacting to. Looks like a quality food for most cats, though.

[garypen]

Did you look at Wysong yet?

EDIT: I noticed in another thread that you have. Have you tried more than one formula? They have a few formulas, one of which is specifically designed for allergic animals, Anergen.

[Geff]

Hi Gary - Thanks for the tip. I just looked at Anergen. Unfortunately it's heavy on the herbs & also uses Garlic & Seafood oil.

                                                 Geff

[garypen]

Davis - I wouldn't call those who have posted about finding foreign objects (specks) in Innova, and now CalNat, "cult-like". They have posted the photos, and there are indeed foreign objects in the food. And, if it is undissolved  chunks of the vitamin "pre-mix", as Natura has claimed, then they certainly have a quality control problem in their manufacturing process.

Also, if it is these specks that have tested positive for certain substances, it makes perfect sense, as their vitamin pre-mix, or some of its components, undoubtedly come from China, and is subject to the lack of safety and quality control they have there. If you combine that with what appears to be a pretty lax testing procedure by Natura, and it seems like something that was bound to happen sooner or later.

It seems that you have completely abandoned your skepticism and cynicism, and have granted an unusual amount of trust (for you), when it comes to Natura.

Geff - Since the problem seems to be with the specks, perhaps you can continue to use CalNat. But, carefully inspect the kibble, and return any bags that contains kibble with specks.

[garypen]

Hi Gary - Thanks for the tip. I just looked at Anergen. Unfortunately it's heavy on the herbs & also uses Garlic & Seafood oil.

Doesn't sound very "hypo-allergenic" to me. But, don't tell "Doctor" Wysong that. He's liable to post a scathing rebuttal on his website. 

[Davis]

Their customer service is what is killing them here.

I agree completely.  Why can't they see that?  They need to change before it's too late.  But consider this--- many people out there without knowledge of this will continue to be customers.  I wonder how much of an impact those of us who know about this will really have on their sales. 

So, when I made the decision to switch dry foods for my dry addicted IBD cat, I chose Wellness Core over Natura's EVO (the EVO has a nasty powdery residue too)

Boy, I know what you mean.  The powder is awful.  I am no longer using Evo for that reason.  My cat finally got use to it and even started eating the powder, so there was not that much waste, but it made him sneeze.  Enough already.   

I, as many other regular itchmo posters, think there is a clear quality issue with some of the batches of food and believe those batches should be recalled.  I really don't know what to make of the poison issue - so won't even cover that.  However, the evidence is very clear from itcho that there is a quality issue with some of the food.  There is just too much evidence to the contrary.  And keep in mind, that those very same itchmo posters that you call 'cult like' are the very same that helped uncover things during the heat of the recalls.  I applaud their efforts even if I do not always agree.  I think they deserve our respect.

They have our respect.  I was not referring to any posters in particular and am very grateful that this was publicized.  As a result, I am looking for another food.  However, that thread has taken on a magnitude and popularity the likes of which I have never seen, and has become like an entire movement which so many people have jumped into, unlike any other pet foods issues I have seen, even the worst of them.  So, in that sense it has become somewhat cult-like (a cohesive group of people with shared beliefs or who are working toward one goal), which does not necessarily mean bad, but just cult-like.  It's not always negative, but can have positive connotations as well, depending on the situation.  I just hope that something good eventually comes of this, even if it is that my cat and others will be eating an even better food, whether because Natura fixed this or because we switched.  I'm not holding out much hope in Natura changing their ways, but that would be nice.

I agree that this can, and did, happen to other pet food companies.  The test is how they handle the situation when it does.  And Natura has been awful.

Absolutely!!!   Whether any further tests reveal anything questionable or not has become less important than their PR right now.  Sometimes I wonder...if they had been greeted with less indignation, anger, and caustic accusations, if maybe they would have been more receptive to people's concerns.   But as a company, it's their responsibility to be able to look beyond that.  That is a part of being in business.

[Davis]

Hi Gary - Thanks for the tip. I just looked at Anergen. Unfortunately it's heavy on the herbs & also uses Garlic & Seafood oil.

don't tell "Doctor" Wysong that. He's liable to post a scathing rebuttal on his website. 

  LOL, that's about right.  I can see the page now:  "Rebuttal to Geff, from The Pet food List"