STRUVITE CRYSTALS DIET for 9 yo overweight indoor Tonkinese:

[Shulie]

thank goodness my Samson's back to normal after he was diagnosed w/ FLUTD struvite crystals earlier in April and now we want to keep him healthy w/o any crystals recurrences, BUT IS IT SAFE AND HEALTHY TO FEED HIM RC URINARY
S/O BOTH GEL&DRY FOREVER AS SUGGESTED BY THE VET? Any complements and/or alternatives to this specific
diet? Please redirect me to previous posts if this subject has already been discussed in the past...THANKS!!

-Shulie

[mel_t]

The best you can do for the struvite is to get him off Dry altogether.  Here are several studies that show that dry food causes crystals.  The prescription foods that "cure" struvite have been shown to cause oxalate crystals.

Dr. Hodgkins, Dr. Pierson and others say that a low carbohydrate wet diet (or a raw diet) will control the crystals by natually acidifying the urine (rather than adding chemicals to acidify as in dry prescription diets) and by providing adequate moisture to the diet to keep the urine less concentrated. 

Here's a bunch of info and journal references to support that.  I will provide more info if I get it - I have posted on my diabetes forum to see if I can get some additional links and articles.

http://www.catinfo.org/  Scroll down to: Cystitis (bladder inflammation) and Bladder/Kidney Stones:

“Generally speaking, a basic (non-prescription) low carbohydrate, meat-based canned food helps normalize the urine pH and provides the proper amount of dietary water. “
“With regard to dry food and urinary tract health, aside from the lack of water in this type of diet, please also note that there is a correlation between the consumption of a high carbohydrate diet and the formation of struvite crystals as shown by this study.”


http://www.cliniciansbrief.com/cms/portals/_default/pdfs/other-publications/HIADV06.FLUTDNovH.pdf “  This Hill’s article states that the wet food was better at preventing crystals than dry food
These articles are further evidence that a high protein wet diet (or raw) will aid in the prevention of crystals:
PubMed - Am J Vet Res. 2004 Feb; 65(2): 138-42 "Evaluation of effects of dietary carbohydrate on formation of struvite crystals in urine and macromineral balance in clinically normal cats" which says carbohydrate stimulates struvite and that restricting it is desirable to prevent struvite.

PubMed - Am J Vet Res 1996 Dec; 57(12): 1726-32 "Effects of a high protein diet on mineral matabolism and struvite activity product in clinically normal cats" and this says "high protein diets have the potential ability to increase solubility of struvite crystals". 

PubMed - J Vet Med Sci 2001 Mar; 63(3): 337-9 "Effect of supplementation of dry cat food with DL Methionine and ammonium chloride on struvite activity produce and sediment in urine" and this says that supplementing dry food with DL Methionine to acidify it decreases struvite activity. 

  However, if the cats were fed raw food which naturally contains methionine this would naturally acidify their urine and they would not get struvite but the carbohydrate in dry food causes the urine to become alkaline and struvite forms in an alkaline urine.    Acidifying pet food causes metabolic acidosis which predisposes to kidney failure, calcium oxalate stones and loss of bone density in cats and so is not as good thing to do but most dry food is acidified and must be causing a lot of kidney failure since Purina say that 85% of cats with kidney damage have metabolic acidosis and they link this to the routine acidifying of dry pet food.   

PubMed  - J. Nutr. 1998; 128(12) "The effect of diet on lower urinary tract diseases in cats" and this says "Recent observations suggest that recurrence rates of signs in cats classified as having idiopathic lower urinary tract disease may be mroethan halved if affectred animals are maintained on high, rather than low moisture content diets".

This shows that cats fed dry food are chronically dehydated and that the lack of water causes cystitis/FLUTD. 

PubMed - Am J. Vet Res. 2003 Aug; 64(: 1059-64 "Effects of a high protein diet versus dietary supplementation with ammonium chloride on struvite crystal formation in urine of clinically normal cats" and this again comes to the conclusion that "the high protein diet is preferable as a urine acidifier" and yet again highlights that cats should be fed their species appropriate high protein, raw diet rather than the carbohydrate laden dry pet food so many of them eat day in day out.
 
PubMed - J. Endourol 1999 Nov. "Calcium Oxalate urolithiasis in cats" and this says that 40% of uroliths in cats are now calcium oxalate stones and it links this to the routine acidification of pet food since all the carbohydrate in dry food alkalises the urine and so pet food companies began acidifying pet food and have caused calcium oxalate stones to form by acidifying it which can only be removed by operation. 

Can Vet J. 2003; 44(1): 783 "In support of bones and raw food diets" and in this they say that feeding raw food has not caused any medical problems to the pets of clients they have advised to feed raw food to their cats and dogs and detail all the health problems which have disappeared when the pets were fed raw food which include bladder problems. 

[mel_t]

Also, here is Dr. Hodgkins' take on it.  She has a chapter on it in her book that's coming out in June.  She doesn't mince words, but I trust her implicitly.  She saved my cat Scratchy's life (via her diabetes forum and protocol), and she regularly gives out free advice via the forum and email, for no personal gain.  She is a very busy lady, yet she always finds time to answer questions from cat owners, regardless of whether they are paying customers or not.

I'd post the "bladder problems" chapter here but it is a bit too long for that. Here's a summary:
30 years ago, dry foods began to become very popular for cats. Very convenient, most quite cheap. Everyone is happy...supposedly. About 5 years after that increase in dry cat food uptake, cats begin to develop this "mysterious" condition variously called FUS, FLUTD, struvite urolitiasis etc. Well, FUS is caused entirely from puting a dry alkalinizing diet with high carbs into an obligatory carnivore, but either pet food companies (especially Hills) failed to understand what was going on (like they were blindsided by taurine deficiency), OR, didn't dare admit the problem (and wanted to get more money for a new medical diet) so decided to come up with a new diet to fix this problem occurring in "genetically defective animals." c/d and s/d were born, and sold boatloads of product because there were boatloads of this problem being seen by vets who also didn't see the connection between dry cat food and FUS. Well, as many of you know, these foods were really not all that effective in dealing with the problem...many cats on c/d still had to have surgery to amputate their penis to relieve the obstruction caused by FUS. Many others (especially those on the dry forms of these foods) still had recurrent episodes of cystitis, despite being on an expensive vet-only diet. As if all of that wasn't bad enough, many cats got an even worse problem, calcium oxylate urolithiasis. Of course, unlike a pharmaceutical company marketing a drug, Hills had done no long-term testing for adverse side effects with its medical diets, so owned cats got to be the test animals for this long-term, multi-million cat "study." neat huh? Hills got to charge owners for the privilege of enrolling their cats into this study. And vets helped them do it! Brilliant!!!!

20 years later, Hills has FINALLY come up with another new diet that is supposedly going to avoid both of these conditions. Now, this new diet has also not been tested long term, so once again, pet owners get to pay to test this new product. We have no idea what new problems will arise, and will have to be corrected in 20-30 years after countless cats have suffered and even died.
Please tell this lady that the orginal problem was the diet, and using "gerry-rigged" new untested diets to manage it is nothing less than an attempt by pet food companies to avoid exposure for negligence and greed, and to capture yet more $$$ without regard at all for the health of the patients fed these untested diets.

I use NO Rx diets in my practice. My FUS cats all go on canned high protein/low carb or, if I can make the case, on raw. This not only cures the problem, which is NO surpise since it simply reverses the nonsensical retrofitting that the pet food companies have been doing for decades, but it also upgrades the patient's entire nutritional well being at the same time, preventing all of the other problems associated with these plastic, dangerous, untested diets.

Don't know what else to say.....

[Shulie]

THANKS FOR THE PRECIOUS INFO!!

Has anyone had any direct experience w/ all the new canned food brands suggested on the website? I really want to start a much healthier diet for Samson now that he's crystal free!! And I want to keep him that way forever!!

[mel_t]

THANKS FOR THE PRECIOUS INFO!!

Has anyone had any direct experience w/ all the new canned food brands suggested on the website? I really want to start a much healthier diet for Samson now that he's crystal free!! And I want to keep him that way forever!!

you're welcome 
I can't advise on specific foods, but in choosing a canned food for cats, ensure that the first few ingredients are meat (preferably over "meal" or "byproduct") and that there are no fruits, veggies or grains added.
Dr. Lisa Pierson's site has some tips on selecting canned food:
http://www.catinfo.org/commercialcannedfoods.htm

you want to find a low carb canned food.  some of them are deceptively high in carbs.  Have a look at the canned food charts at this site to help you decide:

http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/canfood.html

[Cindy Nevarez]

Ha! I like this doctor!

[mel_t]

Ha! I like this doctor!

I get to meet her tomorrow at the pet nutrition forum in Toronto!!!  I'm so excited.  She truly is an angel on earth for cats.

[Cindy Nevarez]

Lucky you!

Say Hi for me......

[jenny]

My vet just prescribed Hills S/D for one of my cats (canned).  You can imagine I'm not comfortable with that although I did buy some.  Since all three of my cats show red blood cells in their urine, two with "margins" on their kidneys, I plan on continuing my move to put them all on canned food. They are 50 / 50 now.  Thanks for the posts above.  I've read a lot of the info on canned foods so had already started the move from 100 % dry, but now have to go back and review regarding crystals. 

One thing the vet did mention.  Our cat with crystals / high ph is VERY, VERY, VERY stressed by going to the vet.   Does anyone have any experience with the impact of stress on crystals and urine ph - my vet indicates there is a link but would like to read about it as well.   We were given a prescription anti-anxiety medicine to give to him prior to his next visit.

Thanks!

[Shulie]

NEED YOUR HELP!!

I want to change my Samson's diet from RC URINARY SO (canned) to a safer, healthier diet WITHOUT compromising his urine ph level (which was said to be back to normal by the vet earlier this month. Samson's been eating RC URINARY SO ONLY for the past 4/6 weeks, but I want to retest his ph here at home to see how he's really doing, PLUS: I DO NOT LIKE RC URIN. SO canned ingredients AT ALL!!). I LOVE what Dr Pierson explained and I WANT to implement what she suggested, but unfortunately I don't have immediate access to ALL the food brands she mentioned; there are only 3 brands available at my local natural food store, i.e. PetGuard, PetPromise, Newman's Own.

HAS ANYONE HAD ANY (POSITIVE) EXPERIENCE W/ THESE BRANDS?
HOW DO YOU TRANSITION FROM PRESCRIPTION FOODS TO A DIFFERENT DIET?

THANKS FOR ANY FEEDBACK!!!

[TAZ]

NEED YOUR HELP!!... there are only 3 brands available at my local natural food store, i.e. PetGuard, PetPromise, Newman's Own...

HAS ANYONE HAD ANY (POSITIVE) EXPERIENCE W/ THESE BRANDS?

PetPromised is discussed here: http://itchmoforums.com/index.php?topic=552.0

Transitioning from Rx....can't help, but you could always ask there too.

[mel_t]

NEED YOUR HELP!!

I want to change my Samson's diet from RC URINARY SO (canned) to a safer, healthier diet WITHOUT compromising his urine ph level (which was said to be back to normal by the vet earlier this month. Samson's been eating RC URINARY SO ONLY for the past 4/6 weeks, but I want to retest his ph here at home to see how he's really doing, PLUS: I DO NOT LIKE RC URIN. SO canned ingredients AT ALL!!). I LOVE what Dr Pierson explained and I WANT to implement what she suggested, but unfortunately I don't have immediate access to ALL the food brands she mentioned; there are only 3 brands available at my local natural food store, i.e. PetGuard, PetPromise, Newman's Own.

HAS ANYONE HAD ANY (POSITIVE) EXPERIENCE W/ THESE BRANDS?
HOW DO YOU TRANSITION FROM PRESCRIPTION FOODS TO A DIFFERENT DIET?

THANKS FOR ANY FEEDBACK!!!

as long as you stick with canned, you should be fine.  Look for low carb (<10%)canned.  you can check this list for the nutrient contents: http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/canfood.html

for wheat gluten free varieties of Fancy Feast: http://www.felinediabetes.com/glutenfree.htm

I've also read you should stay away from fish - it seems to cause urinary tract problems in some cats, and Dr. Hodgkins recommends Vitamin C in some instances:

"PS: I have found that some cats with long-standing cystitis have such damaged bladders that they need some extra help getting their urine pH where it belongs (below 7.0). The chronically inflammed bladder is very sensitive to any PH above 6.5-7.0 and it can take time for the inflammation to resolve, even with an acidifying diet. I have found that adding 500mg Vitamin C BID (the time-released product can be put into the food easily) is very helpful, and very gentle for this. Within a few months of new diet and vitamin C (not always needed, serial pH evaluations allow you to track this), these cats just get well and never look back...."
(from this post: http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2598&SearchTerms=crystals,vitamin )

[Shulie]

A HUGE THANK YOU FOR THIS LATEST INFO!! Didn't know about Fancy Feast!! Good alternative!!

[Shulie]

HAS ANY FANCY FEAST EVER BEEN RECALLED SINCE LAST MARCH? What about by-products %?

[mel_t]

No Fancy Feast has been recalled.  A lot of the people on the feline diabetes forum I belong to feed it as most cats seem to like it, they have a lot of low carb varieties and they have those flavors with no wheat gluten.  most commercial foods will have byproducts, but a lot of the FF have real meat listed in the first ingredients.  As an example, I have a can of the tender beef feast, and the ingredients are:

beef, beef broth, liver, fish, meat byproducts, natural and art. flavors, guar gum, vit & minerals, taurine, sodium nitrite (to promote color retention) and biotin

Not too bad, IMO.

Of course, nothing wrong if you want to find a high-end canned with no byproducts, etc. but just make sure it is low carb.  a lot of those brands put in fruits and veggies.  Fancy Feast is just a decent product for it's price, so you're not going to break the bank in feeding your cats.

a lot of them do add fish (like this one) so you may find that your cat has issues with that and want to find one that doesn't have fish.  However, the BIG issue with crystals is the hydration and that's why they say the cat will do fine on most canned diets.