JUST TODAY CHANGE OF INGREDIENTS

[Cindy Nevarez]

Sorry...that's what I meant to say, but it came out spelled that way 

[Geff]

Cindy, Thank you so so much for that information!! You are so helpful! Should I do this for the possible UTI or for an upset tummy?

Geff, Wow. That is incredibly scary. Im so glad your kitty made it through all that. Other than the peeing around the house where there any other signs? Gosh thats so scary. Looks like the vet, is definitely a good idea. How do they test for a UTI? Our vet is a good 30 minutes away, so I dont know if we could bring in a fresh sample. And I definitely dont think I could catch one from him!!

The problem with a male cat is that a uti (yes Gary, Urinary Tract Infection) can completely block their small penis opening because of the crystals that form. Watch for lots of trips to the litter box, straining with nothing coming out, followed by lethargy. I swore after my teenage gf's cat died from this in the car to the vet in her lap 30 years ago that i would never have a male, but Sylvester adopted me. I will never have another male for this reason, but he's been worth it.

For what it's worth while the circumstantial evidence would never stand up in court, all involved came to the conclusion that Sylvester's UTI's were all caused by Hill's dry. In his case, remove the Hills & no more uti's. Unfortunately it took the vet & I over a year to figure that out.

Again, IF you have a male with a uti it's VERY serious. If you truly believe your male cat has a uti, do NOT home medicate, get the cat to a vet YESTERDAY. This is less important for female cats as they have a larger opening.
I'll never forget the time I was thankful when Sylvester peed on my lap. It meant he had at least a few hours to live. While still dangerous, it's not nearly as emergent for a female

Testing involves drawing urine by one of several means  (Getting the cat to pee in a cage is by far the most humane & safe; other methods include squeezing on their bladder or in the case of a very sick kitty either a needle to the bladder (potentially very dangerous but sometimes necessary, or a catheter) ) & testing for crystals. In extreme cases (again my cat is an example) they can lick there little hole shut due to discomfort. In Sylvester's extreme case, it took over a year to resolve everything & the bill was $5,000 in year 2000 dollars. My understanding is that is an extreme case < often antibiotics & a diet change cn solve it.

While I spell checked this, I apologize for glaring errors. I'm having a serious medical issue with my left eye at he moment.

[CC]

Hi all,

Very interesting discussion and I completely agree that any cat straining to urinate should be rushed to the vet immediately.  I did want to clarify that the current accepted term for this problem is FLUTD, feline lower urinary tract disease.

The reason this is important is that at least in young cats, actual infection with bacteria is only the cause in 1-5% of cases, so antibiotics will have little effect.  UTI's are the cause more often in older cats, but often it is mainly an issue of concentration (specific gravity) of the urine, and/or pH level.  It's important to find out these two things from your vet, and also the makeup of the crystals, if any are present: magnesium ammonium phosphate, or calcium oxalate.

See:
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/feline_lower_urinary_tract_dis.html

for more info.  It's a complicated problem, and the best overall solution I have heard is to feed a canned, carnivorous food and encourage as much water intake as possible to dilute the urine and cause less irritation of the bladder walls.  The web page I'm posting links to some more scenarios for treatment depending on the source of your cat's urinary problems.

I was somewhat encouraged to hear Geff (I think) also has a kitty that had to have his male organ removed, and is presumably doing fine.  My 1.5 year old just had this surgery, and while I was really apprehensive at the time, he seems to be doing remarkably better now that he is no longer forming struvite/mucus plugs that block urination completely.  As a young cat, there was NO involvement of any kind of bacterial infection in his case, so I guess that's why I prefer the more general term FLUTD.

[CC]

One more thought... I was nitpicking about the initial cause of crystals/blockage having more to do with urine concentration and inflammation than bacteria, at least in young cats.

But it just occurred to me why Geff has had to be so vigilant of infections since.  If a male cat HAS had the perineal urethrostomy surgery, then they have a greatly enlarged opening and are more susceptible to getting bacterial urinary tract infections afterwards.

We're only 2 weeks post-surgery, but it sounds like I'll have to keep the litter box ultraclean and take the cat for urine cultures fairly regularly or if there's the slightest risk of anything wrong.  (It's a fair tradeoff, though considering his chance of ever peeing on his own again was questionable before the surgery, due to extreme complications.)

Back to the reason I came to this thread.  Trying to decide if it is safe to feed my cats the canned California Natural cat food I bought them before the Menu foods cross-contamination scandal.  Maybe I'll start a new thread for canned Cal Nat...

Cheers, everyone!

[lacy]

Guys I cant thank you enough for all of the information. I appreciate ALL of you! All of your information has been MORE than helpful.

I am a little scared of them squeezing the bladder to get the urine. I knew a woman who had been taking care of a kitten that had been abused. His two back legs had been paralyzed. Long story short, she had taught him how to get around and he was so happy and she loved him so much. Well she had to take him to the vet to get a urynalisis and the tech squeezed the bladder, and while the woman was yelling stop, the tech kept going and the kitty let out a horrible moan and when into shock and died. Sorry about the horrible story, but ever since then I have always been horrified!

Does anyone know if pooping on the kitchen floor could also be a sign of FLUTD? HE did that last night. Or is it mostly just urinating outside the litterbox?

[Cindy Nevarez]

Thank you for sharing that Geff. It does indeed sound very serious.

[Cindy Nevarez]

Very, very interesting. And thank you for this link. I have added it to my "valuable' animal care 'stash.'

With all my years of animal experience, I have yet to have a cat with either of these problems, which surprises me as it seems to be so common now. So I'm soaking up all these experiences for future reference.

[catmom5]

If your cat is pooping and having trouble with peeing I would get him to a vet ASAP.  It sounds like there might be a lot going on.

My cat, Elizabeth, beautiful 8 year old tiger girl, had urine leaking when she slept.  We spent the summer ~ and tons of money ~ at the Michigan State University vet clinic trying to figure out what was going on.  They suspected FLUTD but couldn't pinpoint it because she didn't have trouble peeing or any discomfort while peeing.  Fortunately, medication has taken care of the problem.

Good luck ~ but this is nothing to wait and see about!

[CC]

Hi Lacy,

There are many potential ways to get a urine sample, but it seems most likely they would use the special collection litter (looks like plastic balls), or do a cystocentesis (sp?) where they use a needle thru the bladder wall.  They almost definitely would have to do the latter to look for bacteria, or else the sample wouldn't be sterile. 

The only experience I have had with squeezing the bladder is if the cat is not actually blocked but for some reason can't get urine out on it's own (a stretched-out bladder or temporary sphincter problem).  They had to squeeze my cat's bladder for this reason 3-4 times a day for about 5 days, and I can tell you he did not like it, but I felt like they were being careful with it.  I just heard of someone who had to do this for the rest of their dog's life after he was in a car accident, and apparently the owners and dog adapted to this okay.

I have had many cystocentesis collections of urine done on both cats and never a problem so far.  I assume it's a pretty small gauge needle.  Hope that puts your mind at ease about getting a urine sample done.  I don't have any ideas about the pooping problem--sorry.

[garypen]

I thought they used a needle right through the skin to the bladder to extract the urine.

[Geff]

I was somewhat encouraged to hear Geff (I think) also has a kitty that had to have his male organ removed, and is presumably doing fine.  My 1.5 year old just had this surgery, and while I was really apprehensive at the time, he seems to be doing remarkably better now that he is no longer forming struvite/mucus plugs that block urination completely.  As a young cat, there was NO involvement of any kind of bacterial infection in his case, so I guess that's why I prefer the more general term FLUTD.

Hi CC - My kitty is in excellent health (he just had a blood test in April) 7 years after the surgery. We had 2 issues after the fact:

1. Even with the cone on his head he wanted to lick the surgery area obsessively & I was told at one time by the vet that if he licked the stitches away again there would nothing left to sew up & he would die. That resulted in another month or so boarding at the vet hospital, which allowed healing.

2. While the larger urinary passage was no longer susceptible to crystal blockage, we had to isolate the cause for uti; at the time med literature said that once they had the surgery they were more susceptible. We eventually isolated it to Hills Science Diet Dry, & after several foods we eventually settled on Royal Canin Sensible Choice where he stayed until this recall.

To the best of my knowledge, he has not had a single UTI since we got rid of Hills. He was last tested for UTI in August of 2006.

Again, the good news, is that we've had almost 7 happy years together since the surgery & I'd do it again in a heart beat if needed.

The one negative (which in some ways is a positive) is that he suffered kitty PTSD from the experience. He was once the TOM of the neighborhood & he now associates outside with the vet & the vet with pain; so by his choice he's now a 100% indoor cat.

I again apologize for any excessive spelling errors. I'm not yet sure why, but I'm 3/4 blind in one eye today. Hopefully getting to the doc on Monday.

[Geff]

Guys I cant thank you enough for all of the information. I appreciate ALL of you! All of your information has been MORE than helpful.

I am a little scared of them squeezing the bladder to get the urine. I knew a woman who had been taking care of a kitten that had been abused. His two back legs had been paralyzed. Long story short, she had taught him how to get around and he was so happy and she loved him so much. Well she had to take him to the vet to get a urynalisis and the tech squeezed the bladder, and while the woman was yelling stop, the tech kept going and the kitty let out a horrible moan and when into shock and died. Sorry about the horrible story, but ever since then I have always been horrified!

Does anyone know if pooping on the kitchen floor could also be a sign of FLUTD? HE did that last night. Or is it mostly just urinating outside the litterbox?

Lacy, this is important. Most vets are set up to put your kitty in a cage for the day with lots of water & milk & let him pee through the grates to a collector below when he's ready to pee. This is not a big deal for the vet to offer this, & if your vet isn't prepared to do this, THEN GET A NEW VET THAT IS.

I consider the squeezing the second safest method, but at best it's extremely uncomfortable for kitty & unless your cat is blocked up THERE IS NO CALL FOR IT.  And the problem with extracting urine by needle is that if they miss with the needle & puncture the little bladder it's bye bye kitty. I've learned a lot the last couple years since I finally found a quality, caring vet. As Silly is 100% indoor & tends to react to shots Dr Wright decided no more vaccinations. When I broached this with his last vet I got a lecture on bats... (He's an indoor cat. & yes it's possible that a bat could get in. It's also possible that I could win the lottery).

If anyone is in Tacoma, WA I highly recommend Columbia Veterinary Clinic on 6th & Pearl, & Dr Wright in particular, although I strongly suspect that all the doctors at Cloumbia are good.

[CC]

Garypen--I think we are saying the same thing.  Maybe I wasn't being clear--sorry.
I agree, I think they go thru the skin and into the bladder.  It's hard to count all the times I've had to do this between both cats, but it must be at least 10 and no problems so far.

Lacy--I'm sorry if we are scaring you--sounds like I feel needle collection is safe and Geff feels squeezing is safe, but we both agree the vets will do free urine collection when possible.  So, I wouldn't let that stop you from getting to the cat to the vet.

Geff--I'm glad about the good outcome for your cat.  Mine's an indoor and was kind of girly to start with, so he doesn't seem to miss his member.  I guess we were lucky he came home so soon--I think he was so sick prior to surgery that he was very cooperative and just felt a ton better afterwards.  What do you think the problem with the Hills was?  Their food tends to be heavy in grains, maybe it raised the pH to the point where it was easier for bacteria to form?  Gosh, sorry about your eye problem!

[Cindy Nevarez]

You mentioned this before Geff.

What's going on with your eye if you don't mind me asking?

[Cindy Nevarez]

Bats...

Ha!