Ingredients of Kumpi

[sylvia]

That's a good question. I am not sure I know either. WDJ always says "meal" is dehydrated chicken, beef, etc. I pictured it as the same as dehydrating fruits or veggies.  Slow, low heat.  Maybe not. I'd love to know myself Lisa C.

[garypen]

Elves? No. That's cookies.

[Summer]

    Lamb Meal & Oatmeal Medley
Nature's Variety Prairie Feline Dry Diet
High in meat protein
Whole grains
Exclusive freeze dried raw meat Bio-Coating
Naturally formulated for rotation feeding
Complete and balanced for all life stages

Healthy, Natural Ingredients
Lamb Meal, Canola Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Oatmeal, Brown Rice, Flaxseed Meal, Montmorillonite Clay, Natural Lamb Flavor, Alfalfa Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Lamb Liver, Potassium Chloride, Sea Salt, DL-Methionine, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Niacin Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Beta Carotene, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Folic Acid), Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite), Taurine, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Inulin, Flaxseed Oil, Apples, Cranberries, Freeze Dried Lamb, Freeze Dried Lamb Hearts, Freeze Dried Lamb Liver, Pumpkinseeds, Carrots, Ground Lamb Bone, Butternut Squash, Chicken Eggs, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Kelp, Salmon Oil, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Persimmons, Olive Oil, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Sage, Clove, Rosemary Extract

Prairie Lamb Meal & Oatmeal Medley is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Cat Food Nutrient Profile for All Life Stages.

This is the current label on Nature's Variety's website.  I see no Metal Amino Acid Chelates.  Biggie big difference 'tween the proteinates and MAAC's

Yucca schidigera was used by the Native American for blood purification.

Multiple meat sources allows sourcing essential amino acids.

And is whoever posted trying to say that the Nature's Variety Lamb & Oatmeal cat food label is different from what they have on their own website??

[Lisa C]

Re meat meals, I found this on Wysong's website: "Meals are made through grinding, cooking, and then drying meats into a granular powder".  So I understand that meals are meat with all the moisture removed, but this process sounds to me to be rather more involved than just removing water through drying.  My concern, which I'm hoping someone can answer (Summer?) is what is the consequence of this amount of processing?  Or is there another way of removing water?  I really can't find more info than that.

[Cindy Nevarez]

It sounds no different from rendering to me. And remember; they have no real regulation regarding this process. It's so loose...nothing but a statement like 'whatever happens during normal manufacturing procedures' is acceptable.

Also, the 'cooking' is at over 250 degrees, which kills everything biological including the good stuff...if any.

[Sarah]

Hi Evy, thanks for replying.  It's really bad when another poster invites me to switch to a different brand just for wanting to find out the facts.  So I'm glad you are here

Apparently this other poster neglected to take notice of my message - so I will repeat it here.  I already know you use varied meats as in case you can't get one then you can use another.  However, can this be stated on your label?  Something like this:

Meat meal: chicken or lamb or beef or pork.  If this can't be done legally then would you object to putting a notice on the label of your bag that says just these 4 meats are in your food, or whatever.

I want to emphasize that I am not trying to give you a hard time, but after dealing with Jennifer of Natural Balance and her evading, I want to ask questions that cover ingredients thoroughly.  You are not being singled out, I would ask the same of any other pet food I am considering - which at this point is none.  Yours right now is the only pet food I would feed if I can get the answers to my questions.  But I need those answers and I am sure others can benefit by them too.

I am still asking about meat meal.  Is it rendered?  Can humans eat this meat meal without harm?  Exactly what parts of the animal go into meat meal?  Is meat meal made in the same facilities as rendered by products?  If not then where is it made and how is it made.  Who makes the meat meal?  What condition is the meat before it is made into meat meal?

You state that cats and dogs, road kill, etc. are not in any pet foods at all.  What facts can you provide to prove this?  How do you explain the expose that 20-20 did.  And the news reporter that went undercover.  And if our pets are not being made into pet food, then what happens to all of this rendered meal that is not going in to pet foods?

I am convinced that you believe in good food ingredients for your products.  But how can you trust your suppliers?  The fact that you had to reject a shipment of meat sets alarms ringing - rendered!  Maybe I am wrong, so please state why I should not be suspicious in this day and age of adulterated food.
Sarah

[Lisa C]

I'm concerned about "meat meal" exactly for the reason that Cindy mentions--that the temperature might be too high and the meat over processed to retain much of its natural nutrients.

In one of Evy's posts on this thread she said "Chicken meal is chicken minus the moisture."  Fine, ok, and I don't mind really that they rotate meats, thus instead of chicken meal or beef meal etc. it says meat meal.  It's not the "meat" part that concerns me so much (I guess that depends on the ethics of the manufacturer) as the MEAL part.  It doesn't seem to me that the moisture is just removed, like drying.  Is meal really good for pets?  Is the protein really high quality once it's been cooked that much?  The "minus" part seems a bit disingenuous.  You can't just wave a magic wand and the moisture is removed.  Again, I don't claim to know the specifics of the process, which is why I'm hoping Evy will explain more.

[alek0]

I have posted the ingredients, from an Only Natural Pet store since I couldn't access Nature's Variety page. I would appreciate if you could answer a few questions.

1. You claim that there is a big difference between proteinates and metal amino acid chelates. Please provide evidence on significant difference in bioavailability in cats for metal amino acid chelates vs. proteinates. Unfortunately most studies on supplements are on humans, poultry and ruminants. Howvere, from literature that I could find seems that sometimes even citrates, like Mg citrate, can serve as adequate source (see for example MAGNESIUM RESEARCH 16 (3): 183-191 SEP 2003 ). Finally, please explain why is a mineral source such an important point for comparison if a) in both cases sources of mineral are organic with reasonable bioavailability b) quantities are adjusted so that supplementation is adequate in case of lower bioavailability.

2. Please explain how is "Yucca schidigera was used by the Native American for blood purification." relevant for cats. Only scientifically proven claim is that Yucca reduces odour of faeces (RESEARCH IN VETERINARY SCIENCE 63 (1): 61-66 JUL-AUG 1997 ), and in dogs odor of flatulence (but it does not affect frequency nor amount of gas, see JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION 218 (6): 892-896 MAR 15 2001 ). 

This does not seem to me as such significant benefit. Also, addition of Yucca may not be a good thing in cats with renal problems due to elevation of BUN levels with Yucca supplementation (see again RESEARCH IN VETERINARY SCIENCE 63 (1): 61-66 JUL-AUG 1997).  BUN levels were within normal limits, but statistically significant increase was observed.

3. Which is better - chicken liver meal or freeze dried chicken liver?

Thanks in advance.

[sylvia]

"Food for thought" for the Yucca Schidigera researchers.

www.asas.org/jas/symposia/proceedings/0909.pdf

[garypen]

The only cat-specific reference was to the reduced fecal odor.

[Cindy Nevarez]

These are all wonderful, straight to the point, direct questions! I hope straight to the point, direct answers are forthcoming!

[alek0]

Exactly. Only references I was able to find for cats (and in journal papers not conference proceedings) was about reduction of odor. I would be happy to see other references with real benefits for cats.

Now concerning journal paper vs. conference paper. I am not splitting hairs when I point out the difference. I normally review 3-5 papers per week, and standards for reviewing conference papers (if there is any review which is not always the case) are quite different from standards for reviewing journal papers. Even not all journals are the same. Conference paper is likely better than a book, but journal paper unless it is "veterinary proceedings of southern villages of Nigeria" is likely higher level of evidence. If anyone wants to know, I can post some information in one of general discussion threads on evaluating the quality and thrutworthiness of scientific papers.

Finally, concerning Yucca - I am not saying that it is a bad ingredient for healthy cats (though reported increase in BUN levels may be a concern for cats with CRF), I would like to know what is the evidence for benefits of Yucca. If there is no benefit other than odour reduction, why has this be chosen as an important point for comparison.

Again, Evy, I am not picking on you but I would like some answers. I don't have a problem with you, I have a problem with the whole "good" pet food industry which are trying to manipulate how we *feel* about food by putting ingredients with no benefits to cats but which we would associate with either healthy foods (bluebeeries, carrots, zuchini etc.) or with miracle cures (ancient indians used it for blood purification). I still by the stuff because it is much better than alternative foods, but I don't have to like it.

This sort of reminds me of entire "natural health" industry, full of questionable claims and marketing gimmicks. No doubt some of those things work. But I would definitely trust more a chinese medicine doctor who would tell me "I think these herbs would do you good and balance your hormones" rather than "this will balance your chi and bring your ying and yang in harmony and eliminate excessive cold from your abdomen. And you should never drink cold water!".

[sylvia]

Hi alekO,
 Another point of view:
 I only wish I knew earlier on that Yucca Schidigera controlled flatulence and odor in animals, especially dogs. Even if that is it's only purpose, though personally I think some of the anecdotal on anti bacterial and anti inflamatory may be possible, it sure makes for a more pleasant evening in front of the tv. Especially if you have more than one dog  and they like to be close .It does no harm. From now on its an ingredient I will be looking for on my dog's kibble label.
Beautiful day at the Jersey Shore

[Summer]

While I am talking with grieving pet parents, running my company (there's two of us and I am training a third! plus I have my own jobs lol) and tending to an 87 year old mom who lives ten minutes from - I AM in touch with the professionals who can answer these questions honestly and not just some pablum.  It takes time to gather the info and I'll post is as soon as I can.  I do know that the 'cook' on meal is no more than 110 degrees on our chicken.  It's fascinating to me to get these insights since I am coming up on understanding the difference in manufacture styles between 'chicken' and 'chicken meal.'  The yucca I still stand behind and whoever posted the study you are referring to - if you can provide a link that would be most helpful.  Neither my nutritionist or I have the time to try and reference things AND answer.

Per the 20/20 special, very few companies engaged in the practice of using euthanized animals, etc. and since then it has become FDA regulation broad spectrum that it is an illegal practice.  My manufacturer already had that model in place, but wanted to answer that too.

I am just getting ready to call all of my retailers today and will deal with things as quickly and in as timely a fashion as possible.

Thanks!

[garypen]

Regardless of whether your individual ingredients are healthier or more nutritious than other holistic brands, or worth the extra money, at least your food is not killing animals. That, and the fact that you have a personal relationship with so many of your customers, and you are so open here on this forum, gives you a lot to be proud of.

Be aware that people's questions about your processes and ingredients, and disagreements about some of the same, is not an indictment of you or your practices. I'm sure that everybody here wishes more pet food companies were like Kumpi.

Looking forward to the info from your people.