Ingredients of Kumpi

[Sarah]

Hi Evy, I am looking for a different dry food and would like to discuss the ingredients of what you make.  Before I didn't know any better I fed dog food that had rendered by-products.  Then I discovered human grade dog foods, only to learn they might not be so human grade after all.

Here's the thing:  I fix my dogs own meals now, but if a time should come when I can't give them their meals for a day or several, then I would need a commercial food.  The fact that you use meal scares me off.  To me, meal means rendered.  Just what is in this rendered meat that you use?

The other concern I have is your dog food has a lot of grains.  Dogs don't have a need for grains, they can cause allergies.  They are prone to mold.  With this horrible recall, I feel that the less ingredients that a pet food has, the safer.  Have you ever considered making a dog food without grains?  Except for maybe brown rice.
Sarah

[eternaljester81]

Sarah,
E-mail or call Evy for a much quicker response. She'll be happy to answer all your questions.

[Sarah]

That may be so, but I think it would be good to have the reply on a public forum.  Other people are trying to find a pet food that at least won't kill their pets, and might even be good for them.  I don't quite trust any pet food anymore and I'm sure there are others like me.  People rather than choosing a GOOD dog food are now choosing the lesser of all evils.  I have read about Kumpi, I am interested in it, but am concerned about the rendered meats.  While I home cook there may be times when I have to feed kibble.  I am hoping Evy can convince me that rendered meats are good.
Sarah

[Cindy Nevarez]

Sarah,
It's good that you are concerned about the render meats in pet food...because it's wrong for it to be in the food in the first place...both ethically and morally. By definition rendered meat is what is left after the parts "fit for human consumption" are taken. Add to that all manner of downed and diseased animals, road kill, euthanized pets, and "non-food" items such as the wrapping the stuff was in, the tags hanging off the carcasses and so on.

Some may be able to convince you that 'their' rendered meat doesn't have all that in there, but how would you know? There's no real regulation on it. The terms describing its use are so loose, that companies could put anything in there and be within their rights, not to mention that the method of rendering cooks the stuff at over 250 degrees, which leaves no good nutrition surviving such a process. However, there are plenty of drugs (used to euthanize the animals) and chemicals that WILL survive rendering left in there.

If you want more info on this I refer you to the paper that Tommyboy linked for us the other day regarding the pet food industry as a whole, or you can email me and I'll forward it to you.

[sylvia]

Meat meal is dehydrated meat where the liquid is removed. You get more meat that way. Whole Dog Journal had an explantion in the food issue, I think Feb. Someone on another thread was concerned with meat muscle. That is the parts that are not organ. We eat it. Some meat parts are more desireable than others (filet vs chuck). Good corn provides the omegas and I have fed my dogs a kibble with corn for years. All have beautiful coats and no skin problems. I show them and the coat is a very important part of my breed.
Hope that helps. The only super premium food I have heard concerns about rendering plants on several sites is Merrick. I do know the plant owner had a letter to the FDA disagreeing with their decisions not to allow dead and fallen animals in pet food. He supposedly does not own Merrick Pet Food, his son does. I did use their cans as a kibble topper sometimes. I am off all canned product for now at least (and maybe forever).
According to the May WDJ there was a recall in 1995 - Nature's Recipe Dry-cause vomitoxin*** 1998 foods made by Doane Products- cause aflatoxin***2003 Go! Natural Dry- cause still unknown***late 2005 some dry foods made by Diamond Pet Food - aflatoxin*** and the present one where I am not sure we even have the whole story on cause yet.
Maybe Evy or someone else with more credentials will give more info here. I think there are some misconceptions about what should or should not be in pet food. I switched to Kumpi about three weeks ago after a lot of research and getting info I needed directly from Evy. She will answer you.

[sylvia]

Sarah I just got out the Feb. 2007 WDJ and it does have a lot of the information you are looking for so I won't recopy it. You will not only find the definition of meat or fish meal you will see every food on their list has it, usually in the first three ingredients. It can be any meat, they even have one with Kangaroo meat,  OH NO! They also state they look for foods with whole grains and vegetables, and why, plus much more.
Don't get me wrong. I relied on WDJ for years to help pick dog food. As of today I can find about nine or ten of their recommended foods on the recall lists already. They may have done their homework on ingredients but not on anything else. No where  in the Feb. issue did I see cautions about earlier recalls on the manufacurers they now bring up in May. I would like to have known that. I did know about Diamond when the dogs died in 2005 so would not use their products if I knew they manufactured them. I will NEVER rely on anyone again for my choices but will do my own work. Hope this helps you some.
PS:I decided not to renew WDJ because of this.

[Sarah]

Thanks for the info everyone.  I am suspicious of anything "meal."  It may be good, but how do we know it hasn't been rendered.  After all that is what remains after the fat from the dogs and cats and roadkill are scraped off.  It is also very disturbing that Evy uses "meat meal" rather than specifics.  I believe this is so if she can't get beef at the time then she can use chicken.  Well, why not list this on the label?  Chicken or beef or lamb meal.  If by law, it can't be listed in the ingredients section, then it can be mentioned someone on the bag - contains beef, chicken, or lamb ONLY.  No other meat.  But Evy doesn't do this.  And I can't help but be suspicious.  Is this meat meal that Evy puts in her dog food human grade?  Can humans eat it everyday and not get sick from it?  If I were not feeding my dogs what I eat then maybe I wouldn't be so particular.  But to go from my food to a commercial feed with ingredients that are so vague is scary.

[Cindy Nevarez]

Yes Sarah, that's right, "meal" is NOT human grade. And because the type is not identified, any kind of meat, and I mean ANY kind of meat can be used. If they use the worst kind imaginable, they would still be within their rights to use it...that's the problem.

[Davis]

Sarah, Evy has been a prolific poster on blogs, so I will try to answer just as I heard her answer (paraphrased) this very question.  She said that listing just "meat" enables her to use the highest quality of meat, since she is not restricted to a certain type.  For example, if at the time of production, she has access to high quality pork, but only lower quality meats of other types, then she prefers to be able to use the one of highest quality, and not declaring type allows her to do this.  She says this means that the type of meat in her food will vary, but that it will always be of the highest quality.   

Sylvia, the concern some of us had on other threads with "muscle meat" is not the fact that it is defined as "muscle".  Of course we know that muscle means it's meat, as opposed to other types of parts (such as organs, which are not all bad).  The concern was that it is undeclared as to the species of meat, meaning animal source.  It could be skunk for all that we know.  Skunk muscle is "muscle meat" too  (not suggesting that this would ever be used...but).  The whole issue here is the term "meat", which is not species specific.

[sylvia]

Sarah I tried but I have no idea where you are coming from. Perhaps you need to contact Evy Serpa personally. Perhaps this is just not the food for you. There are so many foods on Therese's list to choose from. You do not have to worry about one you feel uncomfortable with. I am happy with my decision and what's on the label. Find one you are happy with.
Davis, I have no worry about skunk meat  or dead cat meat or even kangaroo meat with this food. If you do I will suggest the same as to Sarah, move on to other  foods.
Frankly this whole line is getting just plain silly. But then again where have I seen this before?

[eternaljester81]

I e-mailed Evy the link to this topic, so hopefully she'll respond here. But as Davis said, she lists meat as meat meal so she can put the highest grade meat in the product. She has said that she uses either beef or pork, whichever grades the highest. It saves money on bag printing by just putting meat meal on the label.

[Davis]

Sylvia, I was not talking about this food, but food in general, and was referring more to the other thread where "meat' was discussed.  You truly misunderstand.  Not everything is meant to be dead serious either.  The skunk reference was in jest, and had absolutely nothing to do with this particular food, which is why I included the big smile face.  An entirely different food was being discussed on the other thread.  This food is not an issue for me.  Thank you though. 

[Davis]

I e-mailed Evy the link to this topic, so hopefully she'll respond here. But as Davis said, she lists meat as meat meal so she can put the highest grade meat in the product. She has said that she uses either beef or pork, whichever grades the highest. It saves money on bag printing by just putting meat meal on the label.

Yes, thank you for clarifying that.  That is exactly what I heard her say too.  She explained why she does it and which meats may be in it.  The other food from the other thread that I was referring to did not respond satisfactorily when questioned.

[sylvia]

Sorry you do not get my humor Davis. I did not think you were serious about skunk meat any more than I was about dead cat or kangaroo. However there is a kangaroo meat  on WDJ's Feb 2007 recommended foods list. I will print the info on shipping if you would like. It is available on the west coast and  from Singapore. I do not feed or eat things I consider cute so my dogs will never see it no matter how much they beg. You have to understand I taught for many years and like automatic pilot I try to give info if asked. I simply think Sarah should keep looking until she finds a food she is happy with and not worry about one that may not suit her. I have found several that sound good to me. I liked what I had been feeding too but decided to see what might be new out there. My changing had nothing to do with the recall but my searching surely did. No one should worry about something they are uncomfortable with so my suggestion is "move on". I am happy with Evy's label and explanations but Sarah may not be.  It looks like nothing is going to change her mind with the possible exception of Evy and my guess probably not.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Grey here at the Jersey Shore. 

[Summer]

To All 

One thing first - it takes more than an ingredient label to make a good food.  It takes a premiere nutritionist who knows not only the science of nutrition (please note it is a science) it also takes one who knows the chemistry of each of the ingredients.  I've got that base covered.

You all have been duped hideously by this industry in more ways then you know.  I doubt their intentions.  You have also been duped by the *online pseudo experts* who have twisted information and have just gone on a bashing mission.  I trust their intentions but also have seen more garbage posted about the *facts* of ingredients and have spent the better part of nine years trying to help educate people.

When you see the word "chicken" it is 65 - 70% moisture and will sink to the bottom of the ingredient panel when the food goes to cook.  It has been an ingenious way for the industry to give people a false sense of how much 'meat' actually is in a food, since they call it 'fresh' but it's smoke and mirrors.  MEAL is the dry form of it's respective ingredient offered in a dry form.

Chicken meal is chicken minus the moisture.

Lamb meal is lamb minus the moisture.

Corn meal is corn minus the moisture.

Turkey meal is turkey minus the moisture.

There is no hocus pocus when it comes to understanding the term 'meal' and I dealt with this in length over on Itchmo's site the other day as well.

Davis is right about the 'meat and bone meal'......it gives me the opportunity to use whatever meat source (usually pork or beef, their chemistry is very similar) that is optimal when the food is up for production.  On April 3rd I was going to have 60 tons of product made, but the meat ordered came in at unacceptable levels for rancidity (it's called pv values) and was rejected.  There was no other source acceptable at the time and I had to wait ten days until my food could get run.  If you take the time to read my statement on my website, you will see that the food is certified to have no roadkill, euthanized animals, etc.  It is sad that I even need to post that, since there is no meat source out there anyway like that. 

More to come.  Have to answer a sad phone call.

Sigh.

I'll be back.