Raw and Dry??

[lacy]

Guys this is sooooooo hard! I want to feed some raw and some dry food. How in the world does one do this? I feel like if I add vitamins to the raw and they still have dry food out, that the vitamins in the dry food would overdose them. Or would it???

[Cindy Nevarez]

When I first researched raw, I understood that because of the short digestion time that the animals had mixing dry with raw was forcing them to keep the food in their digestive tract way too long, and thus causing the problems associated with that; example, bacteria inside too long. So I've also come to understand if you have to mix cooked food with raw, to use high quality meat with vitamin-rich veggies/fruits (not so much with cats - mostly meat here) only, and no grain at all. So that cuts out the dry altogether, and you already have all the nutrients you need for them in this case.

[lacy]

That makes sense! Thanks Cindy!

[diffuse]

dry food is bad for cats. see catinfo.org for why.

[janielaurel]

Agreed. Dry food for cats can kill them. Mostly, it shows up in stressed digestive systems, kidney problems, urinary infections. I lost several cats to those problems, only to discover too late that it is the dry food that does the damage. Same statement works for dogs, but we ARE taking kitties here.... cats do require vegetables, mostly for the vitamin nutrients. If you watch a wild cat, it always goes after the intestines first (not the stomach - way too much acid there), so it can consume the partially digested remains of its victim's last meal. (sorry that sounds so gross, but it's true). Then, when they've had what their brains tell them is enough vegetable matter, they move on to the meat. And cats do require a higher proportion of meat to vegetable in their diets.

Do not EVER feed your cat dry food, and actually I wouldn't recommend feeding them commercial food either. Cats are carnivores and need raw meat for optimum health. Why do you want to feed your cat dry food? Ease of feeding for YOU? Cats aren't vegetarian, and they don't eat grain. Or shouldn't eat grain.

If you follow some simple guidelines for preparing meals at home for your cat, you can do several weeks' worth of meals and freeze them; then all you have to do is pull it out of the freezer, bring it to room temperature, (never microwave it, please), and you have a meal fit for the royalty your cat is :-)

[GreyGhost]

There are many opposing views on mixing dry & raw. I have done it for months before switching to 100% raw. Being that the digestive tract in a cat & dog is short and fast there really doesn't seem to be a basis for the no mixing statement. Different food companies will tell you different things. Some say its fine and some say its not. I tend to thing it is fine. I never had a problem with mixing when I was doing it and there are a few companies with vets and nutritionists on staff that advocate rotating between raw, kibble, and canned, So its a personal preference to me. But I do believe that since the digestive tract is short and fast I can't see it being a problem. Not to mention dogs actually have an enzyme in their saliva that kills bacteria. But thats just a whole other story.

[Bonkers]

   I have one kitty that eats raw only. Ocassionally I neglect to pick up the kibble bowl after my other two kittes have eaten and he manages to sneak a few pieces of kibble. It does not seem to bother him but kibble will mess up his stomach. To be on the safe side I would space it out by a few hours between feedings. I would not feed raw and kibble at the same time.

[GreyGhost]

Would you not feed raw and kibble at the same time because kitty's stomach get messed up with kibble? Or is it because of the concerns listed above?

[Bonkers]

  I have read that for dogs it takes kibble between 9-12 hours to digest, where raw only takes between 3-4 hours. So if raw is fed at the same time as kibble, it will take the animal longer to digest the raw. Not sure if the same applies to cats. http://www.rawdietforpets.com/FAQ.htm#Mix

[GreyGhost]

Yeah, thats what I meant by there are so many conflicting reports. I still think kibble and raw is ok for most. I know alot of people with dogs that mix it and have never had a problem. I also think about people have been mixing canned and kibble for many years. Almost everyone does that. Canned is pretty much the same as raw in digestive sense, they move along in the same time frame. That and knowing how fast and short the system is makes me think its not a problem. Of course not having a problem with it also makes me think that way. But its always to be safe than sorry. If someone feels uncomfortable mixing than they can always feed the kibble portion at one meal and the raw at the other. Looks like we both have some good points.

[sherrylynne]

To the best of my understanding, the studies involving this were done when the animals were fed dry with no access to water to help in the digestion. That is why it took so long for the digestive processes to work. When water was allowed, the digestion took far less time. So raw and dry weren't such a problem.

[Bonkers]

To the best of my understanding, the studies involving this were done when the animals were fed dry with no access to water to help in the digestion. That is why it took so long for the digestive processes to work. When water was allowed, the digestion took far less time. So raw and dry weren't such a problem.

   If you have access to these studies I would very much like to view them as I have never come across any info that mentions water consumption having anything to do with digestion rates.

[sherrylynne]

The study below was quoted to me on another forum. Hope this is what you wanted


"Arnbjerg (1992) studied the time of passage of various commercial
food items through the stomach of dogs (25-30kg) by radiography. The
types of food used were (1) dried food with 10% moisture, (2) canned
food with 70% moisture, and (3) fresh food (fish) with 75% moisture.
After food ingestion the animals had no access to water or to any
other type of liquid.

In group 1, the food remained unchanged in the stomach for 8-10 hours
after completion of the meal. After 15 hours (+/- 1 hour) the stomach
appeared to be completely empty.

In group 2, the food started to enter the duodenum after 4.5 hours
(+/- 30 minutes). The stomach appeared to be empty 7-8 hours after eating.

In group 3, the food was observed in the duodenum 30 minutes after
ingestion and emptying was complete 4-6 hours after ingestion.

The results of fresh meat emptying are in agreement with the results
for labelled chicken liver reported by Cullen & Kelly (1996) who found
a gastric emptying time of 3.5 hours, including a lag phase of 71
minutes (+/- 9 minutes).

However, Meyer et al. (1985) found a faster gastric emptying (3 hours)
for radiolabeled steak and liver in large breed dogs (20-25kg body
weight).

Compared to Meyer et al. (1985) Burrows et al. (1985) observed
comparable results in half-emptying time in large breeds (26-32kg body
weight) using different isocaloric commercial diets. Canned meat based
food (77% moist), dry cereal based chow plus water (77% moist) and dry
cereal based food were emptied in 3.8 hours (+/- 36 minutes), 2.5
hours (+/- 36 minutes), and 2.4 hours (+/- 36 minutes) respectively
(differences not significant).

The large difference in half-emptying time of dry food between the
studies is probably due to the fact that sometimes, like in the study
of Arnjberg (1992), the dogs had no access to water."

Arnbjerg, J. (1992). Gastric Emptying Time in the Dog and Cat. Journal
of the American Animal Hospital Association. 28, 77-81

Taken from:
A Review of the Physiology of the Canine Digestive Tract Related to
the Development of in Vitro Systems, Nutrition Research Reviews
(1998), 11, 45-69

[Bonkers]

   I feel that water has no real bearing on rate of digestion of food item. It is the enzymes and stomach acids that are present that break it down. Also processed foods are harder to digest because the molecules are bound tighter together.   "Carnivores do not have digestive enzymes in their saliva. Humans have amylase, which helps to begin to break down complex carbohydrates. The dogs’ digestive tract is one-third to one-half the length of an omnivore. This shortness is designed for adaptation for quick, muscular digestion of raw meat and bones. Carnivores have a much higher concentration of hydrochloric acid in the stomach for the break down of proteins and to kill any dangerous bacteria. Their stomach acidity is less than or equal to pH 1 with food in the stomach, while humans have a pH 4 to 5.
 
This raises the question of what is the best food for carnivores, according to the digestive tract and physiology. Dogs, as carnivores, have difficulty digesting grains and other complex carbohydrates. With the lack of digestive enzymes in the mouth, complex carbohydrates are not predigested, and take a long time to break down in the stomach, and small intestine, if they break down at all. Most of the complex carbohydrates pass through undigested, and create large stools in the dog."  http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/fresh-raw-diet/?main_page=Feb2003.php                                                                                                                       An excellent website that discusses digestion and comparison of humans (omnivores), carnivores and ruminants (herbivores) is from Colorado State University.  http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/overview.html

 

[sherrylynne]

Really interesting articles! And they make a lot of sense. Thanks for posting them