The reason things went wrong...

[Tommyboy]

I liked the article too. That website has lots of cool stuff. OK. Cool. I wonder, though, FDA regulations being lax or not, why should we just accept stuff that may or may not be as good as other stuff, concerning food mostly, strictly because of our own economic situations? If something is safe, nutritious, and proven to be healthy and edible, why would any company put out a lesser quality product to sell cheaper when they know it is nowhere near as good for you(or your pet)healthwise? And why do we consumers not have the right (?) to say "no way, this is crap compared to that, how can you even try to sell it"? It is either good or it is not. I mean it is (pet) food, you should not have to roll the dice and see if it will make you (or your pet) sick. It is either good for you, or it is not. How much money you have in the bank should not determine what kind of stuff you put in your dog or cats or your own body. Do I make any sense here? Gary, I like your "prisoners running the prisons" analogy, and I believe that. But it seems like we are the prisoners when we just accept this stuff as normal. Gee, sorry about this soapbox thing. I'll get off.

[garypen]

The fact is that some people simply can't afford a pet food made from 100% meat proteins or other high quality ingredients. There will always be cheap foods that use fillers and non-meat protein  that those people can afford. Just like there is cheap human food that is not as high quality or nutritious that many people can only afford. There is nothing wrong with that

But, there should never be anything dangerous or unsafe in any pet food at any price that might harm our animals. (As is theoretically the case with human food.) That is why there needs to be tighter govt regulation into the industry.

[Davis]

Obviously, fillers and non-meat sources of protein are a big problem with pet foods. If it wasn't for them, we wouldn't have thousands of dead and sick animals from eating tainted glutens. But, that is NOT the reason things went wrong. It is one reason why pet owners should avoid the big, mainstream, and/or cheap pet foods. But, the real reason is bigger.

There is no real regulation of the pet food industry when it comes to ingredients, labelling, manufacturing, or nutrition. The FDA lets AAFCO, a pet food industry consortium, set the standards for pet foods. That is like letting the prisoners run the prisons.

The pet food industry needs serious regulation and enforcement, as we have for human foods. You can get rid of all the glutens, fillers, amd such from pet foods, and they could still be using rendered carcasses, road kill, 4D animals, etc. They could be using brown rice, a good grain, imported from China, which could mean it's embedded with harmful fertilizers and pesticides.

Of course, we should avoiid these fillers. But, until the safety of all ingredients can be insured, as well as the manufacturing process, any food can end up being unhealthy for our animals.

And, lets not forget people who can't afford the better foods. They may only be able to afford foods using non-meat proteins and fillers. There are plenty of people like that. That's just the way it is. They need to know those ingredients are safe as well.

Gary, very well said!

Now, to address this whole controversy regarding people posting here who work in the industry or represent a company, I personally do not like it, but at the same time, I don't know how we can avoid it. At least it helps to know who they work for. I think Therese made a good decision when she made the rule that they must identify themselves.  However, any one of them could easily slip in here under the radar and post without identification.  I watch for that all the time. 

For some reason, Back To Basics and Kumpi talk more on these blogs and forums than any other companies.  It has gotten to be a bit excessive!  We were suspicious about all of those similar repetitive posts in the Kumpi forum for a while too. I think if these people who work in the industry want to post here, then they need to just focus on their opinions about pet food in general and not discuss how great their company is.  I would not have a problem with that, but that is as far as it should go. I would really hate to see that whole Evy/Mike (Beowulf) competition/debate/slug-fest that was happening on the blog start here.  They can do that kind of thing elsewhere. To both Mike and Tracy, if you want to discuss food in general, then fine, but aside from identifying yourselves, please refrain from telling us about your company.  This is not the time or place.  And please don't post exactly the same copy and paste speech on more than one thread (Mike).  I'm not questioning the sincerity of either of you, but it creates a difficult situation for us.  Please understand.

Mary, I still read these threads no matter who has started them or who's posting on them, because my forum friends are commenting here too, and of course I want to hear what they have to say.   So, it's hard to avoid a thread just because these people from companies are posting on it. Know what I mean?  It's a dilemma.

Edit:  Well, I now have a different reason for reading all of these threads.  Therese just made me a moderator.   Don't worry folks. You're in good hands.      

[sylvia]

At this point I am totally confused as to all the contradictions going on at this site.    I joined to find out what was going on with pet foods in general, to learn people's experiences with feeding their pets from the options available, any nutritional info QUALIFIED individuals might offer and I have no problem with manufacturer's talking about their foods if they identify themselves as part of the company and if they REFRAIN from downgrading other manufacturers. Each time I post I speak for me only. What I am finding is:
I have been attacked as a "shill" for a particular pet food when all I wanted to do was help by offering something I was happy with after much research on my own. Other people have been included and have even been accused of all "sounding alike". Hardly so, and as a teacher with a background in English I can refute that with some expertise. I hear people offering nutritional advice when it is obvious they do not know what they are talking about instead of sticking to the anecdotal and I have heard from some very sincere, helpful and knowledgeable people such as JayJay. Please let's keep things on a level where everyone benefits and no one is insulted. Otherwise the real purpose of this wonderful site will be lost. I will end by commending Theresa for this and her food lists on Petsitusa. She is a genius and has the most readable and user friendly sites I have found.  A+ Theresa.
PS I followed Whole Dog Journal's pet food list for years. After what I have learned in the last month I will no longer even renew my subscription and  I did let them know why. Not even the courtesy of a reply from them.

[willyagogo]

Congrats Davis!!!!!...

I'd also like to thank Gary and yourself, for putting into words my EXACT thoughts...but doing it much more "eloquently" than my "terse" post earlier.....as I was starting to feel like a bit of a "forum poop!".....

Back to what went wrong........I agree totally about the "lack" of regulations.....and that the FDA, should have more stringent inspection protocols when allowing products into the country!......As far as "an under-staffed FDA".....Bollocks!!!!!

Would that be their excuse.....if some Anthrax was to end up in the "human" food chain?.......Or is it simply an excuse used when it's only our fur-babies that are getting poisoned?

Long story short.......whether it's a premium or lower quality dogfood is not the problem......as NEITHER should have poison in their ingredients!

Also, in light of the "hog situation"......human-grade ingredients in "premium" pet foods doesn't carry a whole lotta' weight with me anyways!!....

[Therese]

I realize there's some question as to whether or not people who work for pet food companies should be allowed to post messages here. I would rather these people be up front about who they are than to come on here incognito to praise their company. As I mentioned before, anyone is welcome to post on the list, but please:

- Identify yourself as a representative for the company you work for
- No blatant advertising. Keep your web address, phone, etc. confined to your signature line.
- No bashing other companies
- No long dissertations about why your brand is best (this can be viewed as advertising)

It may seem unfair to some - I realize that, but I do not want this to turn into a free advertising vehicle for pet food companies. I think it's pretty much a matter of common sense. Discussion is fine, advertising is not.

And of course, if anyone has any questions, please feel free to contact a moderator or me. Right now, Davis is the only moderator...we may be adding more as time goes on.

Thanks everybody for helping keep this place a viable, helpful tool where we can all learn and support each other.

[Davis]

Sylvia, I just went and read the Krumpi board in more depth to try to understand what the problem is. I'm sorry that you are so angry and you feel you have been treated unfairly. I have not kept up with that board, other than to notice that initially, there were several posts with the exact same title, "Kumpi", by posters with only one post...still only one post. That is what I was referring to when I said "similar posts", and indeed they are in that way. Perhaps others who referred to posts sounding the same were speaking of something else. It's also unusual that all of those posts were individual posts when those posters could have just posted under the last thread of the same title and added their comments. Those styles of posting are almost always a sign of spam. That should not reflect on you and does not mean that everyone there had those types of posts. They didn't. For one thing, you have continued to post. I think what sometimes happens is that the wrong person gets blamed for something that was noticed previously.

There is not a problem with people who represent companies posting here, even though it makes some of us a bit cautious. But as I said, they should talk about food in general and not lean toward promoting their companies. I don't see that this has happened here to any great extent yet, but it did happen on the blog and got quite out of hand, so a reminder was in order.  As for talking about their food, perhaps only within limits, and since they have already done that, it seems only reasonable to me that some kind of cap should be placed on it or the repetitive nature of the posts lean too much toward advertising. At this point, if anyone wants any further information, they can certainly contact the companies.  Websites and emails have even been posted, and that invitation has been offered. 

[sylvia]

Davis, I am not angry as I know who I am and my intent.  I am in no position to question anyone else as to intent. One particularly mean entry right after my initial one was later removed. I was ready to "dump" this site at that point. Then I decided to post a strong response instead. Others may have dropped the site. My only point is that it would be a shame to lose the original purpose by infighting and unfounded accusations or attacks.
I understand why some are so angry. We are lucky here as the dogs are healthy and their foods, at least at this time, are "safe". However, I now find that premium companies I have trusted and  that made claims of processing all their products were in fact not telling the truth. I also trusted Whole Dog Journal and now know they did a less than thorough job when making up their yearly lists. I guess the teacher in me just wants this site to remain positive and helpful to all who visit.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to me.

[garypen]

Therese - Those are excellent guidelines. And, by allowing pet food reps to post, it gives us insight into what the people who make pet food have to say about pet nutrition, and the pet food business in general.

Davis - Very wise post, as usual.

Sylvia - I'm sure Kumpi is a fine food, as are many others, and I always love to read about peoples' experiences with these healthy, holistic brands during these stressful times. However, those initial Kumpi posts, with their marketing PR style, deserved the suspicion and gentle ribbing that they received. In fact, there still seems to be a strange cult-like devotion and defense. (Strange to me, anyway.)

Mary K has since apologized. And, I doubt anybody has left this forum because of her post, or mine, or Davis'. However, if anybody has left, it may be because they feel some comapnies are using it to advertise or promote their products. That is why Therese's guidelines are so helpful.

[sylvia]

Garypen my point has nothing to do with Kumpi or any dog food. It has to do with what I feel is positive and helpful and productive vs the negative. I also posted somewhere the names of other foods including Wysong that I used for years and decided to change only because I wanted to see what might be new out there. It had NOTHING to do with the recall. I own no stock in any food, have no vested interest in any food and really do not care what anyone else uses to feed their animals. Sorry I tried to be helpful. It won't happen again but I really am curious why a few of you seem to focus in so closely on one particular company with such negative intensity. Such a waste.

[garypen]

There's no negative intensity here. Nobody is compalining about you or anybody being helpful. You obviously don't get it, so, I guess there's no point in trying to explain it any further. C'est la vie.

[willyagogo]

Please....enough allready!!

Sylvia....let's start over......this topic is not about the positive...it is about the NEGATIVE....the reason things went wrong....sooooo.....

I read on itschmo today that a "fish meal" from China was contaminated in some way. I'll try and get back to you with the link on it!!!

Every day it's something new! Although....my gut is really starting to tell me....that it may be new to us, but I think all this stuff has been floating through the industry for awhile now. When the contaminated Wheat Gluten was found....as I've said before....it was like opening up Pandora's Box! All this stuff isn't new......it and the PFI are just being "exposed" for what and who they are........cheap sh*t!!!

I wonder what's next on the "expose list".......

The reason things went wrong.......they weren't caught earlier...by the FDA and the PFI and all the other scumbags....whomever they might be" that have been in on this dirty little secret while watching our pets die....over a meal that costs more than my rent, a FINE glass of Crystal.........after getting their $400 haircuts!!!..

[Summer]

Garypen 'n others too ~

I am a recovering pet food industry product user lol.

Seriously, I am the President of Kumpi Pet Foods.  The reason for the preponderance of posts for Kumpi products has partially to do with the relationship I have with my customers and turning them on to this site.

Yes, they can be kind of cultish and you have to admit, not many pet food company presidents develop relationships with their customers.  But the company is so small, sometimes their results have been positively extreme and they become zealots.  From what I can see, they kept their comments in the appropriate section of this forum and it's really a feel good for me after working for nine years at this in relative obscurity.

I hope you don't hold that against me or them.  I've been busy and not able to pay a lot of attention to all of the forums and blogs about what has been going on in the industry and online chat.  But I assure you that the posts are not spam - I can recognize the posters by what they are saying.

The real focus cannot be lost and that is doing what we can about the pet food industry run amock and SO TRUE that buying pet food should not be a game of Russian Roulette.  The absolute panic and fear among consumers, particularly those who have lost a pet, is overwhelming.  I've talked with many of these people and I assure you, not everyone ends up buying my product and I encourage them to do whatever they feel right doing.  If they feel that for now cooking for their pet is the right way to go, I have no part in trying to compel them to buy my product.  It isn't and never should be about 'getting a sale' since pet lovers tend to have tender hearts and there are many out there right now just needing to talk and feel like someone cares about them.

As I read posts, it seems like there will hopefully be a groundswell surge of pet loving consumers that will turn to this industry and say, "Enough is enough!!"  That has long been needed and this catastrophe, which really is pandemic, will turn more and more consumers into thinking twice and even three times.  Sadly, there are many out of the loop and I was happy to see a post discussion about getting the media involved more.  I'm seeing more of that as I peruse blogs tonight.

Therese has taken a wonderful step in the right direction with helping consumers know Who makes What and Where.  It has enabled the consumer in a powerful way.  Change takes time, especially with a giant like the pet food industry. 

Part of the reason I take this recall situation SO personally is that I almost lost my 87 year old mom in February of this year to food poisoning.  It wasn't peanut butter and my mom is sharp and keeps an eye on expired product.  The ambivalence she was treated with angered me and still does.  If it wouldn't have been for my presence she would have been totally blown off.  One specialist tried to pass it off as IBD.  Now mind you, she was bedridden, mostly dead and let's say that I cleaned the paths to her bedrooms more than once.  Something in the human AND pet food chain is affecting life and it was far too close a call for me with my mom this year.  I am grateful she is a strong woman, but seriously, it just about took her under.  If she would have died, I would have been devastated.  That is part of why I extend a listening ear to the people who call me.  There by the grace of God go I at this point.

Tonight, I FOUND MORE RECALLED FOOD on a drug store shelf.  This whole mess has so many tentacles it is almost impossible to grasp.  Yes, they removed it by the way, but that isn't the point.  Something that simple, just getting a RECALLED product off a shelf still seems to be a monumental task.

Kudos to Therese for not only beginning the pet food list, but for also opening up this forum.  May I suggest that she places a "DONATE" card on some page of entry so people can help pony up for the time this is taking her?  I noticed one over at Itchmo and think that is a stellar idea.  Maybe, from modesty Therese is not doing so, but let's try asking her to please give us some means to literally pay her back for her time and bandwidth.

Hug those FurAngels tight my friends.  And remember, Golden Retrievers aren't the only smart blonds

Evy

[garypen]

The industry needs more people like you and the Back to Basics guy.

[Geff]

Personally, I appreciate the industry folks who post here. Haven't many of us complained strongly about the lack of clear communication we've gotten from the industry? I don't get why we're bashing the few who are willing to listen to our concerns & tell us the truth! Personally I wish to thank the few industry folks who've gone out of their way to communicate with us here. I have not personally read any posts here or on Itchmo from the industry that appeared to be untruthful. With that caveat, again I personally appreciate the posts from Evy, Mike & any others.