Home made diet

[Mary K]

Oh, Boy, I'm in trouble again, eh?      Despite that my posts seem to be some of the most "generic"  they still manage to offend so many people. I had written that top post because at the time, a "Guest" was attacking Alek0. I had read many of Alek0's (who had been a member of the Forum for quite a while) posts. I thought that the "Guest" just popped in and attacked Alek0 without reading through many of our other topics and was assuming Alek0 was just someone who didn't know a darn thing. Now that is what I call condescending- to assume someone knows nothing. I was merely suggesting the guest read around the site and get to know some of us before attacking us. As far as the rest of us go, that particular post/subject is closed. (As Cindy says, you have to take that one in context.) Now I know that many of our readers have degrees and many do not. As for making choices that do not have scientific evidence, I am the first offender! I have had a lifetime of medical experience/careers and have consequently chosen a holistic lifestyle for me and my pets. But I don't judge others who think traditionally! We get to make our own choices about how we feed our pets. Hurray!! And and we also get to decide if we are going to be offended or not by every little thing. Didn't mean to offend anyone; sorry!! Thanks, Cindy!

[Cindy Nevarez]

                                                                                   

[mel_t]

Mary, I wouldn't say I'm offended, and yes, I realize I wasn't here when the initial exchange took place.  However, the statement came after that poster's first post in the thread, and so to readers who weren't here, it can easily be misconstrued. 

I just thought it was important to point out that any informed, well-read and researched individual can "know more" than any given "expert" about a certain topic.  For instance, I probably know more than my GP about migraines and their treatment simply because I have been suffering from them since I can remember and have done lots of reading on the topic.  I have gone in there with info on new meds I want to try that she isn't even aware of. I don't consider it to reflect poorly on her, because she is a GP and can't be expected to know everything about every condition.  I just think that we should be careful about saying someone "knows more" than someone else as a blanket statement.

I did understand the context somewhat, but it's hard to interpret intention in a post on the internet, so please don't feel that I was attacking you.  I'm not here to make trouble    

[Cindy Nevarez]

Also...FYI mel, to be fair...some of catgirl's posts were deleted afterward due to the fact that she started name-calling. So you can't read them all now.

[Mary K]

Hi, Mel_t,
  This whole blogging thing is new to me. It is hard enough to write an e-mail to someone (even a good friend!) and always have them interpret it the way I am meaning it! Guess I'm old school: face-to-face sharing. I do forget sometimes that there will be thousands of people who don't even know me reading what I write. Many may just communicate differently than I do. And if someone doesn't read all the posts in a thread, they will get the wrong idea. Also if a certain post just happens to be at the top of the page (yikes-I hate that !) some newcomers will just start reading from there and miss why that post was written from preceding pages. (This happens frequently with newcomers.) Lastly, if people don't read all the threads (and who has time now days?) they just won't get the "feel" of other's personalities and will often jump to conclusions.
   You seem like a nice person and I have no hard feelings! In fact, it seems we have much in common so far! And I agree about experts. I had a certification in my nursing specialty and often knew more about it than the MDs. I also am sure I know more about what is best for my body than my doctor does because I listen to it and am with it every day!
  Also, I am the one here who is learning not to be offended on the Forum. It is not easy for me to check the messages each day knowing someone may have attacked me. It is a risk you take when blogging. But I avoid confrontations in other areas of my life so I am not used to it! The key for everyone is to re-read your posts before submitting, and dwell on their impact a bit! Gee, get me talking about philosophy and I can't stop....

[mel_t]

It's all good, Mary K. 

I'm  a member of several online forums, notably one made up of several hundred women...let's just say that the "conflict" on here is nothing compared to what has happened on that forum

there's always the chance that our words and meaning can be misinterpreted, it goes with the territory, but as long as it's addressed in a civil manner, then we can all peacefully co-exist.   I see nothing wrong with differences of opinion, the world would be a pretty boring place without it.

[Mary K]

Thanks, mel_t,

  Very well stated! I actually think I am learning more here about people and interactions than about petfoods! And it is good! I marvel at how many people here respond graciously to negative comments. I strive to be like that! It is definitely a learning experience if one pays attention to subtleties!

[alek0]

Sorry guys, busy time at work, end of semester...

Mel_t,
I would like to reiterate that I do nto entirely agree with Strombeck's recipes, but they are still better than Pitcairn's or Frazier's. I have posted those for one reason only, and that is it is hard to find recipes with cooked cat homemade diet. I hoped to start a discussion on home cooked, since that seems my only option for home made, and I am sure there are other people who, for whatever reason, cannot or would not feed raw.

I am sure that raw diet is perfectly fine provided:
a) The main source of protein is rotated frequently
b) Sufficient supplementation is provided, and vit. A content is not too high since vit. A can be toxic.
c) The meat is fresh and safe

I would feed raw if I had a source of fresh and safe meat, which I don't. I live in Hong Kong, which means that my local meat comes from China which would definitely not be a good idea to feed raw (or to feed at all). Once or twice a week when Australian and New Zealand imports are freshly defrosted I buy those, but it makes 1-2 meals per week and it should not be frozen again according to the label.

So I feed mostly canned and supplement with dry. The canned I feed is made in Japan and contains only meat or fish, jelly, and vit. E for fish based cans. You can actually see pieces of chicken or fish when you open the can, it looks quite good, no visible junk or artficially formed "meat" pieces like in Iams. I supplement with dry for the sake of vitamin and mineral supplementation.

I would like to phase out dry entirely, but I am still searching for vitamin and mineral supplement with  normal and healthy ingredients, i.e. no fillers and no garlic, alfalafa and other stuff known to be not that good for cats. If anyone knows good vitamin/mineral supplement for cats, I'd really appreciate the info.

Alternatively, I plan to replace dry with freeze dried raw, although at the moment I am sticking with Serengeti since I have several bags with older expiry date which I know are safe (have been using them with no problem).

I just have this irrational fear of introducing new things until this whole mess is finally over and regular Friday recalls finally stop. I haven't been sleeping well since Natural Balance recall which totally shocked me, since that is one food which  used to feed before since it was (supposed to be) grain free. I don't know what will I do if recalls don't stop before I run out of existing food supply with tried expiry dates, I'll probably have a nervous breakdown. 

And, for the record, I do not think you should trust anybody just because they have a degree. That includes doctors and vets, too. Do your own research and your own thinking/ But research does not only mean Google and Wikipedia, since anyone can make a website. Internet is a good place to start, but it should not be only source of information. I may have ahigher degree than other members here, but my degree is not in animal nutrition, and I do not consider myself very knowledgable on the subject. I am stil learning, and trying to the best I can for my cats given the circumstances and limitations of my current situation (life in Hong Kong).

[mel_t]

Alek,

if you are feeding mostly canned, why would you need dry for supplements?  Any commercial pet food is generally going to have the same supplements in it.  In terms of supplements, why not buy individual supplements (as per the recipe at www.catnutrition.org) and add them individually?  Oh, I just re-read - so the canned you get has no added supplements?  I would add the supplements individually then.


What about Platinum Performance as a supplement?  http://www.platinumperformance.com/animal/feline/products/productcategories/product.cfm?category_id=310
Dr. Hodgkins has been using this for years, and highly recommends it; she breeds Ocicats and feeds them raw mixed with this.  not sure if it would ship to Hong Kong tho.

 
I have no issue with people who want to feed cooked.  I do feel that raw is the "gold standard" however.  My main issue with those recipes is that they appear to be up to 50% carbs, which is no good for cats.  I'm sure there must be some cooked recipes for cats that do not contain veggies or grains?  In fact, if you used the boneless recipe on catnutrition.org, I see no reason why you couldn't just cook it.  She even suggests par-cooking it if you must buy pre-ground meat to deal with any contamination that may be ground thru the meat.  When I get a chance, I'll have a look for some cooked recipes that would have less carbs.

I agree with you, research should not be just Google or Wiki, however, I would like to point out that the information on nutrition that I have found are not by just "anybody" who can build a website.   Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins has been a vet for over 30 years, and is pioneering a treatment for diabetes that has a very high remission rate (which, by the way, has cured one of my cats, and literally brought her from death's door to being a very active cat now); Dr. Lisa Pierson of www.catinfo.org is also an experienced vet and has endorsed the recipe at www.catnutrition.org and carries a modified version on her own site as well.  She also does custom diets by consultation for cats with medical conditions.  I have references for a lot of veterinary journal articles that link dry food to various diseases, and the article by Debra Zoran, the Carnivore Connection, is a published article as well.   

[alek0]

Mel_t,

there should be absolutely no problem with taking out or significantly reducing grains in Strombeck's recipes. The issue with just cooking the raw food recipe often does not work since the cats won;t eat it. I am begining to think that "chopped clams with juice" is the trick in Strombeck's recipes.
I am not saying they are the best thing there is, but his book has been quite informative on calcium supplements (bonemeal vs. other forms), which I haven't found elsewhere. Lots of quantitative analysis, which is good. I would appreciate better recipes for cooked though, please post if you find any.

As for Platinum Performance, I don't like it, specifically I have a problem with: Rice Bran, Soy Flour (how safe are these considering cuirrent recall situation), Cane mollases, and unspecified Natural Flavor. I am also pretty sure that Pine Bark is not a necessary nutrient for cats, that organic mineral sources would be better than sulfates, zinc yeast does not have significantly higher content than non-metal enriched yeast, etc. Basically, the biggest problem I have with it is rice bran and soy flour because of current situation.

No objection to websites by Dr. Hodgkins and Dr. pearson, but the fact that they are experienced vets is really no argument (i.e. "argument by authority" is unscientific). I know experienced vets who have healthy pets of their own who swear by Royal Canin, which is in my opinion quite bad food.

As for article by Zoran, it is indeed excellent and informative.

Now I should better get back to grading, I have this huge pile of stuff to finish. I hate exam period.

[Raw4Pets]

Cat girl is right.  Cats are TRUE CARNIVORES.  They can't digest carbs.  The domesticated cat has the same organs and insides as does the lion or tiger.  When was the last time you saw a lion or tiger eating veggies, or kibble?  This is why our cats are having so much problems from obesity to teeth problems.   I was just at barns and Noble book sore yesterday trying to find a book about raw feeding cats that doesn't include either grain or veggies in the meal.  None of the books, I found had straight meat diets. They all included some sort of grain or veggies.  Yet vet after vet will start out saying that cats are true carnivores, then they will go on to recommend that either you cook the meat or add grains or veggies to the diet.   Cats will eat only fresh meat and will not eat the meat after it starts to go bad.   They get all of their nutrients and liquid from their prey. 

Pat

[Mary K]

The domesticated cat has the same organs and insides as does the lion or tiger.  When was the last time you saw a lion or tiger eating veggies, or kibble?

My cats have always liked nibbling on non-poisonous houseplants and grass. They do this by choice, and seem to love it (despite me doing everything I can to discourage them from getting my plants.) I imagine many others have also observed this. Sometimes they vomit just afterwards, so are using it as an emetic, but usually they do not.

[mel_t]

Mary, the issue is that a few nibbles is not going to be the same as if 50% of the ingredients are grain, fruit or veggies.  If the grass wasn't vomited up, chances are that it would just pass through the digestive system whole (much as a ribbon or other foreign object would). 

I was just posting this on another forum, so thought I'd post it here as well.   It's Dr. Hodgkins' comment on the argument of the grains/veggies being in the prey's stomach:

"Small amounts may be irrelevant but as you can imagine, cats don't depend on nutrients from veggies (they get those nutrienst when they eat the veggie-eaters). Their systems simply are not set up for that. While some argue that cats get veggies from the GI tract of their prey, this is very misunderstood. yes, if you cath a mouse and eat it pretty much whole, you will have eaten its GI tract (as those who swallow oysters whole eat the guts, including the unexcreted poop, of the oysters, yuck!). But when a cat catches something large enough to allow it to pick and choose what to eat and what to leave, the GI tract gets left for the scavnegers. If you want to see something funny, get some green tripe and offer it to a cat. Not only will they not eat it, but they run like heck to get as far away from it as possible. I have no objection to anyone adding a "mouse-stomach sized" dollop of seeds and grass in the cat's food....most recipes call for lots more than that...."

from this thread:
http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=443&SearchTerms=stomach,prey

[Mary K]

Hi, I failed to include the quote by Raw4pets above in my last post to explain my last  statement. Raw4pets states "

The domesticated cat has the same organs and insides as does the lion or tiger.  When was the last time you saw a lion or tiger eating veggies, or kibble?

I basically agree that cats were designed to eat meat, but I couldn't help myself but to mention about the grass and plants above in reply to that quote !   

[Cindy Nevarez]

Also, I've read (I forget where now) that cats do this grass/plant nibbling thing for the sole purpose TO throw up.....not for the nutritional benefit of digesting it.

BTW, my cats do this very infrequently.