Home made diet

[Mary K]

Hi, Catgirl! Please read the post on this forum

http://thepetfoodlist.com/forums/index.php?topic=250.45

between Alek0 and Summer, starting with post # 48. Alek0 knows more than we do !!

[catgirl]

Mary,

I disagree. I don't think Alex knows more than I do. I have done much more research on this than it would appear he has. Anyone who is saying carbs are okay for cats doesn't know what they are talking about.

[alek0]

Catgirl,

I have posted some recipes from Strombeck's book, since that is one of the few sources of recipes for homemade cooked cat food and the only one recommended by AVMA. I do not agree with everything in his book, but I wanted to share this info since not everyone has access to a full university library the way I do.

Also, although these recipes might not be perfect, they are still way better than Friskies and there are quite a lot of people who are not comfortable with going against medical or veterinary advice and there are way too many vets who are strongly against feeding raw. I do not have a problem with going against expert advice when it contradicts existing evidence and common sense, but there are plenty of people who are just not comfortable with it.

Finally, I am not saying that carbs are OK. I am saying that cats need a balanced healthy diet with lots of variety and minimal processing. I am not entirely convinced that the raw food recipes on the internet are indeed balanced, because all there is is limited number of personal testimonies. I am not convinced that most foods on the market, whether dry or canned, are balanced either. And unfortunately there simply aren't enough reliable data to conclude what is a balanced diet which would guarantee long and healthy life. There are lots of grey areas and contradictory claims in human nutrition, and it is even more so for animals. So in absence of reliable hard data on what is best, I go by common sense and try to provide as much variety as possible, with as little carbs as possible, which fits into my existing constraints on a) available foods here b) what my cats are willing to eat. In my opinion, this is reasonable approach. If I am wrong, I would like to see evidence why is this wrong. However, I do not find it anymore convincing if you type things in CAPS and I do not consider information coming only from internet sources as 100% trustworthy.

[diffuse]

the recipe from catnutrition.org is from a vet, iirc.

obviously vets will disagree on what's healthy for a pet. but i'm not inclined to be overly trustworthy of vets, given how much they continue to push dreck like science diet.

[catgirl]

Alex,

Much of these old holistic recipes are out of date! This is stuff from 20 years ago. I don't take AVMA recommendations as anything I would consider feeding my cat.

Do you even have a cat yourself?

As for this issue of "balance" this is one thing term that the pet food industry routinely uses to convince people not to feed raw.

Did you read any of those articles I posted? I asked that you read them because there is extensive information in there that argues that raw diet is complete for cats -- not to mention the fact that they have been eating it for thousands of years. Yes now we can add a kitty vitamin to it like Platininum Performance or the vitamins that www.catnutrition.org recommends to top it up...

but things like potato should not be fed to a cat! It's plain and simple!

I would recommend that you order and READ when it comes out Dr. Hodgkins book. She is taking on all this nonsense about pet food and also incorrect "holistic" recipes that put stuff like potato and sweet potato in it for cats. It is simply not a species appropriate diet for our obligate carnivores. Cats are not small dogs.

Why aren't you looking for evidence from the pet food companies about the carbs (grains, soy, rice, corn) they put into commercial food as proof that feeding carbs causes diseases in cats?

The evidence is there....there is LOTS of veterinary (even) research that talks about the problems of feeding carbs to cats. They are obligate carnivores that need MEAT not CEREAL not CARBS and NO it is NOT OKAY to give them even a little bit of it. Get it?

Catgirl,

I have posted some recipes from Strombeck's book, since that is one of the few sources of recipes for homemade cooked cat food and the only one recommended by AVMA. I do not agree with everything in his book, but I wanted to share this info since not everyone has access to a full university library the way I do.

Also, although these recipes might not be perfect, they are still way better than Friskies and there are quite a lot of people who are not comfortable with going against medical or veterinary advice and there are way too many vets who are strongly against feeding raw. I do not have a problem with going against expert advice when it contradicts existing evidence and common sense, but there are plenty of people who are just not comfortable with it.

Finally, I am not saying that carbs are OK. I am saying that cats need a balanced healthy diet with lots of variety and minimal processing. I am not entirely convinced that the raw food recipes on the internet are indeed balanced, because all there is is limited number of personal testimonies. I am not convinced that most foods on the market, whether dry or canned, are balanced either. And unfortunately there simply aren't enough reliable data to conclude what is a balanced diet which would guarantee long and healthy life. There are lots of grey areas and contradictory claims in human nutrition, and it is even more so for animals. So in absence of reliable hard data on what is best, I go by common sense and try to provide as much variety as possible, with as little carbs as possible, which fits into my existing constraints on a) available foods here b) what my cats are willing to eat. In my opinion, this is reasonable approach. If I am wrong, I would like to see evidence why is this wrong. However, I do not find it anymore convincing if you type things in CAPS and I do not consider information coming only from internet sources as 100% trustworthy.

[alek0]

Catgirl,

again, I have posted recipes from Strombeck's book for those interested in them since the book is not easily accessible. Not all people are comfortable with feeding raw, and there are very few resources for recipes for cooked food.

I have read the links you have posted, this is not the first time I have seen them. I've also read Little big cat website, and feline future and many others on raw feeding. I will read the book by Elizabeth Hodgkins when it comes out, and I have read most of the better known books on cat nutrition and recipes. Most of them have some useful information, but I have yet to find one with which I entirely agree. Again, "cats evolved eating raw food" is not a scientifically valid argument, since evolution does not favor long lifespan of an individual. Anybody can publish a book, and anybody can make a website. Peer reviewed literature does not provide evidence on superiority of raw food. Most papers are just case studies on vitamin A overdose, salmonellosis etc. The article by Zoran is excellent, but she only talks about the dangers of feeding a diet with high carbohydrate content. That article does not say anywhere "feed only raw" nor "cat diet should contain no carbohydrates".

The studies on dry food are not particularly convincing either, although with those the problem is not lack of data but rather sources of funding and possible conflicts of interest. However, I do not see anything wrong with feeding a good quality dry food essentially as a vitamin/mineral supplementation to mostly canned diet with occasional raw meal. I also think it is a better option for vitamin/mineral supplementation than most supplements on the market. This would include Platinum Performance which contains rice bran, soy flour, and cane molasses and only inorganic mineral sources. Not to mention strange ingredients like pine bark. The references cited in support of Platinum Performance do not appear to be cat related, though I'll have to check out full articles tomorrow from the office. The vit. B supplement recommended on catnutrition website contains silicon dioxide, rice bran powder, and alfalfa powder, which I do not consider as all that great ingredients for cats.

In my opinion, freeze dried raw foods or good quality dry foods are a good choice as supplementation of mainly wet diet and grain/carb free diet for cats (I use cans which are only meat or fish in jelly, with prebiotics and vit. E for fish based cans). I have formed this opinion after extensive reading. You are free to disagree with it. However, your opinion is just that, an opinion. Not even expert opinion is a proof. Each person should do their own research, critically evaluate all the information, and make a decision which they consider best.  I may revise my opinion when more information is available, or if I find a vitamin/mineral supplement I am happy with. And btw "balance" may be a word which is overused by pet food companies, but that does not mean that balance is not important.

[catgirl]

Alex,
I would urge you to STOP recommending that people feed dry food. Dry food is causing many many illnesses in cats, ranging from IBD, to CRF to Feline Diabetes. This has been well documented. All you have to do is look at the many many forums where cats are DYING LIKE FLIES because of eating dry food over the long term. It is POISONOUS FOR CATS.

People need to educate themselves about raw diet. They must get themselves out of the way around feelings of squeamishness. It is their natural diet.

Of course the big pet food companies will do everything in their power to stop people from knowing about the benefits of this, because they are making so much money and have gotten so very very rich selling junk food kibble -- brainwashing vets and consumers both.

But IMHO -- and that of educated progressive vets -- the 5 star diet for cats is raw diet -- I have been doing this and I have SEEN the results. And every cat owner that you find who has been feeding raw diet will tell you the same. There is lots of anecdotal evidence.

The whole industry is going to turn over to the raw food industry. The junk food companies will be out of luck. They will have to stop using cheap cereal and additives to make their "food" or go out of business. Right now, the situation we are in with junk cat food represents nothing short of consumer fraud. There have been no long term studies proving that dry food doesn't cause illness in cats and LOTS of anecdotal evidence and cases in vets' offices to prove that it does. But the vets are complicit in this because they are trained by the pet food companies in vet school, get bonuses, free product and free vacations to push this junk.

This is not simply my opinion. The evidence is there. Please refrain from you comments that "anyone can write a book," Dr. H is an expert veterinarian and a lawyer with over 30 years of experience in the field. She simply knows more than you do on this subject. period.

The trace amounts of those items you mention in PP is negligible. Dr H has been using this as the mix feeding her cats raw for years. She is also a breeder and all her cats win top prizes and their lab results are excellent. She has been feeding raw for several generations, as have all the other people whose sites I have mentioned with excellent results. Ditto for the supplements in the www.catnutrition.org.

I have been using this recipe for over a year now. My cat was CURED of Feline Diabetes from this diet after getting very ill and ALMOST DYING from stupid Royal Canin/MediCal vet dry kibble. NO one will ever convince me that dry food is okay. It is NOT.

I don't know why you have such a prejudice against raw diets....or why you are so insistent on studies when the commerical pet food companies have no such studies.

 All of the progressive vets recognize that it's really the only solution -- Dr. Pierson, Dr. Hodgkins. Dr. Don Hamilton, many many others. More are coming on board every day and many pet owners simply no longer trust commercial pet food.

And why should they? When dry cat food is full of CARBOHYDRATES -- rice, corn, soy, and now MELAMINE...and so many ADDITIVES...treated with rancid oils so they can sit on a shelf for month.

 It's like you saying that you could live on a diet of cookies every day and there fore you are eating "a complete and balanced diet" there is NO scientific data in the long term for the claims of health with respect to dry food. It is POISON, plain and simple. Commercial pet food is anything but "complete and balanced." That's just marketing lies.

Do you even have a cat? Not sure why you are on this board.

[Sharon L.]

catgirl, please respect the opinions which differ from yours on this forum. Your continued intoleRANTS are beyond tiresome. Play nice, play respectfully, or play elsewhere.

Thank you.

[karatemom2]

I agree with Sharon L.  Catgirl, your very passionate about your position.  And that's ok.  There is plenty of room here for differing opinions, but there is not room for making things personal.  I find the tone of your posts go beyond being strongly opinionated to being offensive and personally critical of list members, and that is wrong.   Please keep it civil or I won't even bother to read what you have to say.  And that, I think, defeats what you want, doesn't it?  I'm open to learning more, but not at the expense of having to put up with rudness.  And just in case you want to ask me...yes, I do own a cat, and 2 dogs.  And I've had cats all my 52 years of life.  And my oldest cat lived to be 19, my last 2 before her lived to be 16 and 14 so I must be doing something right. And they all ate non-premium canned and dry food BTW.

[catgirl]

It is NOT a question of not respecting people. It is an issue of correcting incorrect information.

I'm just "telling it like it is" that's all.

Yes I'm pretty passionate about this, especially since so many people's pets are getting poisoned by dry cat food and the tainted pet food scandal. I think I'm justified in being passionate against this horrendous consumer fraud being perpetuated on the public.

I've pretty much posted what I need to say here. I don't think I'll be back. Spare me the stuff about "tone". You are not understanding what I'm saying or the seriousness of what I'm saying IMHO.


Hope you all have a good time reading the stuff I've directed you to to make more educated decisions about correct diet for our obligate carnivores.

See ya.

catgirl, please respect the opinions which differ from yours on this forum. Your continued intoleRANTS are beyond tiresome. Play nice, play respectfully, or play elsewhere.

Thank you.

[Therese]

Please refrain from degrading or insulting posts. If you're unsure what is and is not acceptable here, please see our Forum Member Guidelines, which can be found here: http://thepetfoodlist.com/forums/index.php?topic=316.0

If for some reason you can't abide by the rules, please go elsewhere.

[zanzie]

Admittedly, it's just one more data point, but here goes . . .

I've been moving my two cats to a raw food diet over the past 2 weeks, using the recipes at catnutrition.org. The girls are adjusting well - one very well and the other more gradually. They used to eat Science Diet kibble ( original, oral care, hairball formula - mixed together) and a bit of 9-Lives, Sophisticat or Figaro canned food. I had switched to Natural Balance in March, and abandoned commercial pet food when NB started recalling products.  I was also tired of cleaning up vomited kibble, and came to realize grain wasn't agreeing with Callie.

I had the girls at the vet this week, and took time to review the cat food recipe with our vet. He looked over all the ingredients and pointed out the critical importance of B Complex vitamins and taurine. He also mentioned that since B Complex vitamins are water soluble, an excess there wouldn't be harmful, whereas excess A or D vitamins could cause harm.

Overall, he was pleased with the recipe, and said the girls should be just fine eating like this for the rest of their days. They are 8 years old, and in good health. The vet noticed their "great coats" and said that their diet obviously agrees with them. I've also noticed softer coats just in the short time they've been eating raw. (I've also noticed a nice combination of energy and calmness . . . the skitty kitty is calmer, and the sleepy one more playful).

 Our vet is a sensible, knowledgeable sort of fellow, who in my experience is prudent and sensitive to pet owners' concerns. He does not appear to sell pet food, or if he does, it's out of sight. Our cats came from his office originally. We adopted them as part of a feral cat rescue program which our vet supported.  I feel reassured having him look over the recipe and pronounce it sound. I realize that we don't have perfect knowledge, and that in a few years we may have different and better ideas of how to feed our pets. Nonetheless, I trust his judgment and his motivation, and I trust the results I'm seeing in my cats.

 

[Mary K]

I made the recipe from Dr Pitcairn's book yesterday called Poultry Delight. As much as my cats appreciate carbs, this recipe had too many! It calls for 4 cups cooked oats to be mixed into the meat. I have to really thin this batch out now with baby food and water, as the oats make it pasty. Next time I will cut wayyy back on the oatmeal. It did feel good to see all 3 eating it, and what a joy to have a stock to freeze for them. No doubt about it- home cooking is work; took me 5 hours.  Should take less time as one gets experienced...I also don't have all the necessary supplements yet so am substituting until they arrive. Meanwhile they all 3 begged for the raw meat as I cooked it. That is something I am just not ready for or comfortable with yet. Anyone else home-cooking?

[mel_t]

The article by Zoran is excellent, but she only talks about the dangers of feeding a diet with high carbohydrate content. That article does not say anywhere "feed only raw" nor "cat diet should contain no carbohydrates".
 

Zoran does state that a cat’s diet should be LOW in carbs.  She includes the nutritional breakdown of a rat in her article, which, I believe, was 9% or thereabouts. 

Have you determined the carb contents of the recipes you posted?  From the looks of them (i.e. the first one has equal parts meat and potatoes) they are quite high in carbs, certainly higher than 10%.  I challenge you to do a nutritional breakdown of those recipes before advocating for their safety in cats. 

Furthermore, Zoran also explains the biological reason why cats do not need carbs – they lack the digestive enzymes to process them. 

With regards to dry food, most dry foods are loaded with carbs. You can check out the nutritional breakdown here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm
If the only argument to adding dry food is vitamin supplementation,  then that can be easily remedied by adding the supplements required to the homemade diet in the first place.  www.catnutrition.org has a bone-free recipe that she says can be cooked. So if the argument for posting these recipes is to provide an alternative for raw, the alternative is on the catnutrition website already.

I totally agree with you that everyone should read with a critical eye and make decisions for themselves, but there are going to be many people who will simply use these recipes without questioning the need (or lack thereof) for so many carbs, and will not read www.catinfo.org or www.catnutrition.org or Zoran’s article, because they were posted by someone who “knows more than we do” as Mary K put it.

Hi, Catgirl! Please read the post on this forum

http://thepetfoodlist.com/forums/index.php?topic=250.45

between Alek0 and Summer, starting with post # 48. Alek0 knows more than we do !!

Mary K, I know your intentions were good, but I resent the implication that someone “knows more than” me simply because they have a degree…by that respect, my vet knows more about feline diabetes simply because she has a vet degree, however the reality is that I cured my cat using Dr. Hodgkins’ protocol, and the biggest hope that I was given when my cat was diagnosed was a possibility of “regulation” (consisting of a blood glucose threshold that wasn’t even in the normal non-diabetic range and the slim hope of remission) That is just one example where, through research, I became more knowledgeable in a topic than an "expert"

To post a comment like that, is in my opinion, pretty condescending. 

[Cindy Nevarez]

Hi mel,
While I agree with your statement re; people shouldn't assume someone "knows more" simply because they have a degree, i.e.; I'd be the first to blurt out in a crowded room right after the initial recall in a fit of anger that vets for example have about as much common sense as pres. Bush, and that their I.Q. is lower than Forrest Gump's because of their blatant overall contribution to this debacle, however, in defense of Mary's statement, she was responding to a militant, insulting and LOUD proponant of the raw diet for cats, who refused to respect the opinions of others no matter how diplomatic it was presented....plus she was referring to the only 2 people at the time who were having an intelligent exchange here on the forum regarding the science of pet food. She and we were in fact trying to get catgirl to lighten up and take a few steps back before her next attack.

None of us at the time felt the remark was condescending, but actually rather pointed within the context of the discussion.