http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070803/hl_nm/food_botulism_dc

This has been bothering me for a long time.  The arsenic levels in rice grown in the south central US are high.  I was not sure where to post this, but since so many pet foods now contain rice, this is a real concern.  I'm sure that the rice which goes into pet food is the cheapest, and would be from the southern/central states, and would not be California rice.  I'm afraid most of the commercial foods we are feeding our pets may contain rice with high levels of arsenic. Just one more assault on their systems.  Please see the article below:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070305092336.htm

Willy!  It's good to hear from you again.  What is the "long story" that has kept you away?  Inquiring minds want to know.  Well, if you're not around, then your probably won't even see this. 

Ha!  How many of us have had that happen?  That surely is a cartoon of my cat when I first tried to transition him to canned and wet food. 

I haven't banned anybody yet.   

Perhaps that's part of the problem , except sometimes the wrong people are banned and not ones who really should be.  I've seen that sort of thing happen.

This must be how rumors get started.  Darn.

There have never been any rumors here about Itchmo that I know of. Paranoia runs deep.   Just kidding of course.  The blog and the information put out there is highly respected.  The forum on the other hand.....? 

Seriously, just the Dog and Cat Food Experience boards have been set up for basically just the facts.  What food you are feeding or were feeding and how well your dog or cat did on it.  We wanted a place where people could post and not be questioned/challenged/intimidated by other posters and would not have to search through 60 pages of a topic.  Threads get off topic so easily.

Although I find most of your rules in that section a bit too restriction, such as "no discussion", I'm comparing apples and oranges because this forum is set of differently, with the brand foods having there own forums.  I personally would not be interested in only posting my experience with a food, without any discussion, feedback, questions, or responses.  That seems to defeat the purpose, but at the same time I definitely understand your point and why you've done this.  I really like these 2 rules:
"There will be no overt praise lavished upon a pet food company, its owner, food etc"
"DON'T post in a topic and then talk about every food but the one you are in."

This one confuses me a bit:
"Absolutely NO claims are to be made FOR or AGAINST any food without ABSOLUTE PROOF, veterinary  certificates, lab results, statements of fact, evidence etc."
I'm assuming it is not meant that you can't say your pet is doing well on a food, or that the pet did not do well, and explain why and what, etc, without having evidence, certificates, etc?? How else are you to give your experiences?  And how do you make sure people are honest?  You can't, which is why it's up to the reader to be able to filter these things.  I think the problem is that sometimes people make far-fetched or poorly thought out claims, and the do a poor job of explaining their reasoning, so rules like this become necessary.  Most of us scoff at miracle claims the moment we read them, as well as the "my cat threw up last night, oh my God, I'm freaking out...I took him off the food immediately...it must be toxic".  Utterly silly.

Hope this clears things up.

Well thank you Samantha.  Most of us are familiar with both forums.  They started at about the same time, and most of us chose one or the other at that time, or are at least dominate in one. I'm quite happy to be here.  I love the way Therese has set it up, and for the most part, we haven't had any real problems that require extreme measures.  But then you already know that, since you've been around here. 

Geff, since we are now taking about Cal Nat. I have started a new topic and moved my response to here:
http://thepetfoodlist.com/forums/index.php?topic=576.0

Maybe you can delete your post and move your response to that thread.  That way it will be accessible for those looking for Cal Nat info.

Davis, Yes, I'm aware of this. Just making a point.

I knew you were probably aware of it.  It was just a reminder, because I can't tell you the number of times I wished I would have copied my inquiries before I sent them on those online email pages.  I always forget.

Davis, My take is that there are more problems then just 1 test coming back with Tylenol. If you haven't, I'd suggest reading Offy's summary on Itchmo

The contamination appears to be quite wide spread

Yes, I know Geff.  I have been following that thread from the beginning and have read most all of it already, even though the time it takes to do so is very annoying.  They keep repeating themselves.  Here are my thoughts: Two things are obvious.  Natura has had a very bad run of food within a certain period of time, and they have handled it very poorly.  But that is not to say that the same could and would not happen with any other company.  I think that is my point.  Given the same scenario, how are we to know any of the rest of them are any different? 

I am looking for another food for all the reasons you mentioned, although I am doubtful about a number of factors.  The one thing that is the most obvious is their bad management of this whole affair.  I don't think they ever expected to be on the hot seat like this.  They were taken off guard and are not handling it well.  I have lost my respect for them for that reason, and also for their lack of quality control and refusal to act accordingly.  However, I am not one to buy, hook, line, and sinker, everything I read on a forum or on the internet.  I keep an open mind.  And last, my cat has not exhibiting any "subclinical" signs of illness whatsoever, neither have I seen anything unusual about his Cal Nat food...no chunks or strings.  In fact, he is doing better than he has for a long time.  First and foremost, I have to take into account my own experiences before I jump on the bandwagon of a bunch of people I do not know.  That means I don't fully trust anyone -- not Natura, nor a bunch of cult-like posters.  That is not to say I don't take everything they say into serious account, but in the end I trust only myself..

This topic was started on a thread about another brand of food.:
http://thepetfoodlist.com/forums/index.php?topic=479.0
I'm continuing it here, where it is more appropriate.

Geff, you could have copied and pasted what you wrote to them into notepad, and then pasted it here.  That is always an option for those online contact pages.  That way you will have a record of what you asked them.

Davis, Yes, I'm aware of this. Just making a point.

Obviously the fact that this food does not have fish is the positive factor for you.  However, in addition to the other things you mentioned that were of concern, I would have a big concern over the following ingredients:  corn gluten meal, soy flour, soy protein isolate.  Those would be enough to cause me to rule out the food entirely, but that's just me. :They scream China, vegetable protein sources, etc.  Blah.  I'd stick with  Cal Nat before I'd feed this.  If the concern about Cal Nat is the fact the one person's tests found trace amounts of toxins, then there is no reason to believe it would not be in a food like this too.  I think you have to consider whether you are really avoiding something in changing, or if you are instead possibly risking  even more.

Davis, My take is that there are more problems then just 1 test coming back with Tylenol. If you haven't, I'd suggest reading Offy's summary on Itchmo
http://www.itchmoforums.com/news-recall-related/recap-gathered-information-on-innova-pictures-posts-tests-t1455.0.html

& at least skimming the posts.
http://www.itchmoforums.com/empty-t1028.0.html
(this one has 72 pages as of 8/4; there is another good summery on page 72 by Donna (PFR07PS):
"1.  Something has/is making pets sick.  It is seen with subclinical symptoms and not life threatening illnesses and it does not necessarily show up on routine lab work.
2.  There are production problems with string, embedded hair, unknown embedded chunks, embedded blue rubbery substance, blue/green embedded chunks, etc.  These findings have been dismissed.
3.  There are variations in what is told to consumers regarding the embedded objects – vitamin premix, flaxseed (I have not heard that one), connective tissue, etc.
4.  They claim there is/has been only ONE complaint."

The contamination appears to be quite wide spread

Geff, you could have copied and pasted what you wrote to them into notepad, and then pasted it here.  That is always an option for those online contact pages.  That way you will have a record of what you asked them.

Obviously the fact that this food does not have fish is the positive factor for you.  However, in addition to the other things you mentioned that were of concern, I would have a big concern over the following ingredients:  corn gluten meal, soy flour, soy protein isolate.  Those would be enough to cause me to rule out the food entirely, but that's just me. :They scream China, vegetable protein sources, etc.  Blah.  I'd stick with  Cal Nat before I'd feed this.  If the concern about Cal Nat is the fact the one person's tests found trace amounts of toxins, then there is no reason to believe it would not be in a food like this too.  I think you have to consider whether you are really avoiding something in changing, or if you are instead possibly risking  even more.

It might have been sweetened with antifreeze instead of sugar.  I just recently leaned that the majority of apple juice comes from China and I'm shocked.  Importing apple juice from China?  If I recall, Geff lives in Washington state.  How weird is it that someone who lives in the apple capital of the county has to buy apple juice from China?  What a shame.  And I love hot apple cider in the winter, but I will never have it again unless I've juiced the apples myself, or I know where it came from.

Yes, I have noticed that.  Thanks Jenny.  These companies either don't know about garlic (doesn't say much for us being able to have confidence in them) or they just don't care, because they think it will attract human customers, and money is the bottom line.  I suspect they think they are using small enough amounts for it not to matter, but it's the cumulative effect that concerns me, and cats are much more sensitive to it than dogs.  I've even run across several homemade cat food recipes that contained garlic too, and some of them had a HUGE amount of it.  I found one recipe that contained mostly onions and garlic!  It had more onion in it than you would put in an onion-based human recipe.

Wellness does have fish. It also has cranberries, tomato and all those things.  All of these foods are using the same ingredients.  Geff, are you sure it's fish that your cat cannot tolerate?  Maybe you could try a Wellness sample and see how he does.  I've been looking high and low at all foods. and none of them are a replacement for Cal Nat.  That is a one-of-a-kind food.  There are no other companies that make anything like it.  I know you want to feed dry Geff, but I'm afraid that if you need to go with an exclusively chicken or rabbit food, you will need to switch to canned.  In the beginning I know you wanted to stay with dry, thinking that it was safer, but I don't think that is necessarily true.  It depends on what you choose.  Canned or homemade also eliminates the rendered meat, which is in almost all dry foods ("meal").   

If they come here, then I will leave.  I have never cared for that crowd and the overall demeanor over there.  It's a good place to look for information, but they tend to get carried away with things at times.  I would never post there. We do have a few posters here who also post over there, and they have been wonderful (i.e. Jenny), but that forum is generally distasteful to me. We have also lost posters here who have moved over there.  That is something I cannot understand. 

Thank goodness for The Pet Food List.  In my opinion, this is a much better forum.  Thank you Therese!  Geez, if they all came here, what would she have to do, set up a "ring"?   By the way Geff, what are you doing posting over there anyway?   Are you being unfaithful to us?    

Just stick with us Geff, and we will figure something out for your cat.  Have you ever tried canned or homemade foods for him?  Will he eat freshly cooked chicken?  He seems to do well with chicken as his meat source, and I'm just thinking that this is the direction you need to go in.  Rabbit is another option and something he might tolerate well.

I just found a thread where a poster stated that Diamond was previously the manufacturer for Wellness dry, but now it's most likely ANI  (something about Wellness having this on their website up until recently, but who knows?).  Gary always makes some good points, but I guess I'm just tired of all the unknowns.  I'm switching to mostly homemade, but I like to keep some dry out for him at all times, because he is a little thin and I want him to eat as much as possible.  And when I'm gone for several hours, I want to be able to leave food for him.  I can't really do that with canned or wet.  So, that is why I still want to find a dry that I'm comfortable with.  Otherwise I'd just give up the struggle and forget it.

And, you're gonna have to give in to a little trust, or at least hopeful thinking, when it comes to company testing of their ingredients.

Yep, and that is precisely what I don't like.  I don't like being forced to trust them (because I don't).  Most of us don't like being forced into a corner.  Just because it's the nature of the situation does not mean I have to like it.  That is the one thing I do have control over, is my opinion about what I don't like having to do.

I don't trust these companies 100%. I never trusted Natura 100%, and was always prepared to drop them if I thought anything was wrong, which I did. I will do the same with Wellness, if they screw up, too.

Screw-ups can be deadly, so we just have to sit back and pray.  Even homemade can be problematic, but at least we have a little more control.  But what about those supplements we may decide we need to put into the food?  Back to square one.

Unless you want to raise your own food animals and grow your own vegetables in your back yard, feed those animals with your own prepared feed from your own ingredients, and prepare the food yourself, you have to take somebody else's word for the quality and safety of the products you eat and feed your family and pets. Even if you chose to buy organic human food ingredients from an organic grocery like Whole Foods, there's no guarantee those items are indeed as they say. And, you will be spending far far more than $2 per pound.

I'm well aware that none of these things are an option.  We're not living in the 1800s, and I don't have the means or resources to do any of those things.   We have paid a heavy consequence for our modern conveniences.

We can ask our elected officials to pass stricter laws to help assure the safety of our foods, medicines, cosmetics, etc, and that of our pets. That would be a good start. But, the govt agencies responsible for enforcement are just as inept and corrupt as the companies they regulate.

I have zero faith in our elected officials,  Even the best of them (if there is such a thing) are limited in what they can do.   

Our best bet is to talk with our wallets.

And they are more than happy to have their hands in them   Meanwhile, while these companies and CEOs are doing quite well, I am getting poorer by the day.  I have to live on a very tight budget and I really struggle to feed my cat the best that I can.  It has gotten increasing difficult for people with small incomes to survive.  I'm lucky to have internet service and a computer (which was a gift), but the day may come when I have to give it up to feed my cat.

Shulie, I'm so sorry.  I've been through kidney disease and it was devastating.  I watched my beloved 19 year old waste away and suffer.  This disease is my biggest fear and biggest concern for the cat I have now, as he is getting older.  Was the diagnosis "chronic renal failure'?  Or acute?  Back then, my cat was also put on Hills KD, but today, knowing what I know now, I would not treat her with that.  However, if it is a temporary illness and he only has to be on it for short period of time, then that may be different. 

My cat was diagnosed with the early stages of this CRF 8 years before she passed away, but it was a rough 8 years at times.  Overall, she had a very good quality of life until the last year, and the last 6 months was pure hell.  I will never forget what she and I both went through.  I had to give her subcutaneous fluids every day.  This does not save them but only makes them feel a bit better. 

Cats can live many years with kidney problems, depending on the severity.  Your cat may have something else wrong with his kidneys and not CRF, however any kidney illness like this can damage the kidneys and greatly increase the chances for it.  It sounds like maybe he has an infection?  Please post back and give us more information, if you can.  What was the actual diagnosis and has he had blood tests?