Exactly. Only references I was able to find for cats (and in journal papers not conference proceedings) was about reduction of odor. I would be happy to see other references with real benefits for cats.

Now concerning journal paper vs. conference paper. I am not splitting hairs when I point out the difference. I normally review 3-5 papers per week, and standards for reviewing conference papers (if there is any review which is not always the case) are quite different from standards for reviewing journal papers. Even not all journals are the same. Conference paper is likely better than a book, but journal paper unless it is "veterinary proceedings of southern villages of Nigeria" is likely higher level of evidence. If anyone wants to know, I can post some information in one of general discussion threads on evaluating the quality and thrutworthiness of scientific papers.

Finally, concerning Yucca - I am not saying that it is a bad ingredient for healthy cats (though reported increase in BUN levels may be a concern for cats with CRF), I would like to know what is the evidence for benefits of Yucca. If there is no benefit other than odour reduction, why has this be chosen as an important point for comparison.

Again, Evy, I am not picking on you but I would like some answers. I don't have a problem with you, I have a problem with the whole "good" pet food industry which are trying to manipulate how we *feel* about food by putting ingredients with no benefits to cats but which we would associate with either healthy foods (bluebeeries, carrots, zuchini etc.) or with miracle cures (ancient indians used it for blood purification). I still by the stuff because it is much better than alternative foods, but I don't have to like it.

This sort of reminds me of entire "natural health" industry, full of questionable claims and marketing gimmicks. No doubt some of those things work. But I would definitely trust more a chinese medicine doctor who would tell me "I think these herbs would do you good and balance your hormones" rather than "this will balance your chi and bring your ying and yang in harmony and eliminate excessive cold from your abdomen. And you should never drink cold water!".

One of my cats goes 3 times a day, others two times a day. She started going 3 times a day recently, but her urine is fine so vet thinks there is no reason to worry about it, could be just my change of schedule. I monitored her at first using urine dipsticks for pH, protein, glucose etc. She didn't appreciate it There was occasionally mild positive (common problem with dipsticks and cats) so we did full urine test and everything came back fine. Except that now probably both my vet and Mitzie think I am really paranoid. Good thing my older two are toilet trained, and Sophie is almost fully toilet trained (on green ring of litter kwitter) so getting the samples is quite easy. For No. 2 they go once a day.

Btw, since this whole mess started, I started a "logbook". Basically a notebook with dates, where I just write down what I fed and when, and who went to the toilet and when. Helps to keep track of things.

I have posted the ingredients, from an Only Natural Pet store since I couldn't access Nature's Variety page. I would appreciate if you could answer a few questions.

1. You claim that there is a big difference between proteinates and metal amino acid chelates. Please provide evidence on significant difference in bioavailability in cats for metal amino acid chelates vs. proteinates. Unfortunately most studies on supplements are on humans, poultry and ruminants. Howvere, from literature that I could find seems that sometimes even citrates, like Mg citrate, can serve as adequate source (see for example MAGNESIUM RESEARCH 16 (3): 183-191 SEP 2003 ). Finally, please explain why is a mineral source such an important point for comparison if a) in both cases sources of mineral are organic with reasonable bioavailability b) quantities are adjusted so that supplementation is adequate in case of lower bioavailability.

2. Please explain how is "Yucca schidigera was used by the Native American for blood purification." relevant for cats. Only scientifically proven claim is that Yucca reduces odour of faeces (RESEARCH IN VETERINARY SCIENCE 63 (1): 61-66 JUL-AUG 1997 ), and in dogs odor of flatulence (but it does not affect frequency nor amount of gas, see JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION 218 (6): 892-896 MAR 15 2001 ). 

This does not seem to me as such significant benefit. Also, addition of Yucca may not be a good thing in cats with renal problems due to elevation of BUN levels with Yucca supplementation (see again RESEARCH IN VETERINARY SCIENCE 63 (1): 61-66 JUL-AUG 1997).  BUN levels were within normal limits, but statistically significant increase was observed.

3. Which is better - chicken liver meal or freeze dried chicken liver?

Thanks in advance.

[Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate,]

Nature's variety HAS METAL AMINO ACID CHELATES. I apologize about kelp, my mistake.

Lamb Meal & Oatmeal Medley

Ingredients: Lamb, Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Canola Oil (Preserved With Mixed Tocopherols And Citric Acid), Flaxseed, Menhaden Fish, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Montmorillonite, Flaxseed Oil, Freeze Dried Lamb, Freeze Dried Lamb Liver, Freeze Dried Salmon Oil, Apples, Cranberries, Kelp, Parsley, Artichoke, Inulin, Rosemary, Sage, Clove, Fermentation Products (Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Bifidobacterium Thermophilum Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product Dehydrated), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (A Source Of Vitamin C), Carotene, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin Supplement, Folic Acid, Riboflavin Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Biotin, Choline Chloride, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Ferrous Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Taurine, And Vitamin B12 Supplement.

Also, this is not about how I *feel* about ceratin foods. Nature's Logic made some very specific claims. While some of those would be difficult to verify, claim that it enhances immune response of dogs vaccinate for Parvo is specific enough. Yet, I have not been able to locate any relevant articles in veterinary journals on this issue. You can believe whatever you like, I prefer to see evidence for scientific clams.

I am not picking on you, I am just pointing out things in the chart which I have noticed. Also, your chart seems to be rather arbitrary. Can you please point out any other advantage (with references for scientific proof) of benefits of Yucca Schidigera addition to food besides reduction in faecal smell? If there is no other advantage apart from reduced bad smell, why has this been chosen as a point of comparison with other foods?

Well, I still don't like that ingredient, simply due to lack of quality control and non-specific ingredients. They list lots of fancy claims with no evidence, so it seems to me that this is mainly about finding some use for slaughterhouse waste (i.e. blood). They say that red blood cells are removed, what about white blood cells, cancer cells, bacteria, viruses, etc?

As for artichokes and tomato powder, those are ingredients to mainly appeal the pet guardian (i.e. we tend to associate them with healthy food). They are not necessary for cats. Tomato vines are toxic to cats, not sure about tomato itself, and not sure what parts of the plant tomato powder contains. Since cats are obligatory carnivores and quite different from humans, it is best if the food contains minimal number of fruit/vegetable ingredients, and those should preferrably be from sources with proven no toxicity to cats.

Alas, I have not found perfect cat food yet. I am feeding Timberwolf Serengeti, my cats are doing well on it, but I hope I can find something better, and I intend to replace it with freeze-dried foods instead of kibble.

One comment on that comparison chart. Not sure about accuracy of comparisons with other foods, but since I am using Timberwolf Serengeti, few things I have noticed.

1. According to chart, TS does not have enzymes. Not correct. It contains both fermentation products of various bacteria (similar to Kumpikat) and papain.

2. According to chart, TS does not have amino acid chelated minerals. While most of mineral supplements in TS are proteinates, manganese is indeed Manganese Amino Acid Chelate.

3. concerning the number of meals, I do think that low ash salmon meal is a better ingredient than menhadden fish meal. Also, I think dired chicken liver should be at least comparable if not better than chicken liver meal.

This is not to say that Kumpikat is a bad food. However, it is not widely available, and it has lower protein and higher fat content compared to Timberwolf Serengeti. I also do not like discrepancies in the chart. In addition to TS, as someone mentioned California Natural does contain chicken fat. Then, Nature's Variety Lamb and Oatmeal does contain amino acid chelated minerals, and it also contains kelp. I do not think it is really necessary to make other good foods appear worse than they really are in order to promote Kumpi.

I have decided not to try, due to ingredient "animal plasma", which can be anything.

See for example ingredients for rabbit dry cat food:
Rabbit

Ingredients:
Rabbit Meal, Millet, Chicken, Montmorillonite, Brewer’s Yeast, Flaxseed, Dried Egg Product, Spray Dried Chicken Liver, Pumpkin Seed, Animal Plasma, Kelp, Natural Flavor, Cottage Cheese, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Egg Shell, Avocado, Chicory Root, Tomato Powder, Almonds, Spray Dried Cod Liver Oil, Apple Powder, Blueberry, Apricots, Carrots, Pumpkin, Cranberry, Broccoli, Spinach, Parsley, Artichoke, Rosemary, Fermentation Products (Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product,  Bifidobacterium Bifidium Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Streptococcus Faecium Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Lactobacillus Sporogenes Fermentation Product Dehydrated), Enzymes (Amylase, Protease, Lipase, Cellulase, Bromelain), Mixed Tocopherols.
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Also, I'm not too happy about tomato powder, artichokes etc. in cat food. Well, at least no garlic, but that "animal plasma" is definitely suspicious.

That's exactly it, it is a personal choice. Right choice for me, and obviously since we are talking about feeding raw or cooked meat to our pets we are not those militant types who feed vegan diets to cats (shudder!!) and want to impose their choices on others.

I've given some raw chicken (Australian, hormone and antibiotic free) to my cats last night and ths morning as a part of the meal and they ate it, yay! The only problem is they seem to be willing to eat little chunks from my hand, they ignore it on the plate. Argh, things we do for our pets...

Now if I only knew who threw up this morning I would be much happier. I hope it is a hairball, they are all shedding a lot, hot weeather has started. Didn't see any hair in vomitted liquid, but hair is all over the house in spite of detailed cleaning yesterday. So I won't panic unless it is repeated. Or at least so I tell myself.

I've used this in the past, but will not be using it anymore for the same reason as Cindy. Their feeze dried is made in their facility, I have a few bags of that though I think some other brands might be better option for cats (less fruit and veggies).

Isn't it funny that all of us considering home made diet here are vegetarians?

When I just got my older two, they were two skinniest little kittens I have ever seen (they were rescues). So I supplemented their food with occasional raw meat or sashimi (tuna or octopus or shrimp). Since it wasn't their main diet, I wasn;t too worried about supplements and balance. I was really nauseous first couple of times when I've given them raw meat or fish, but I was so worried whether they'll grow up normal, they were so malnourished.

Now if I am going to do this all the time, supplements became extremely important issue. That, and getting them to eat cooked. They are willing to eat raw, but I can't get fresh raw every day since I don't want to feed local (China) meat. Fortunately Hong Kong imports meat from Europe, Australia, US and New zealand, but I need to get it when it is freshly defrosted in order to feed raw which does not happen every day and buying bigger quantity and re-freezing is not an option either.

Anyone knows some good supplements? Most of the stuff I have seen has undesirable things, fillers like gluten and silicon dioxide, or stuff not that healthy for cats like garlic. Mary K mentioned Hartz, but I am a bit reluctant to use Hartz. Isn't that the same company which was required by EPA to withdraw their flea and tick treatment due to reports of illness and death (and they denied any problems with it)? Or have I mixed it up?

It is 38% percent protein, while EVO is 50% if I remember correctly.

If anyone is interested to try these, please check with your vet first. I haven't tried them, two of my cats absolutely refuse to eat cooked, and one would just eat a couple of pieces and only hand-fed. There are many books out there, often with contradictory information (that is driving me crazy, don;t know what is best, but I do know that many commercial foods cannot possibly be healthy and balanced), so judge for yourself. Here are the recipes, first some examples for cats with kidney disease than for normal diet. Books also has recommended diets for other conditions.

According to D R Strombeck, for cats with chronic renal disease

1. cHICKEN AND pOTATO (LOW PROTEIN, LOW PHOSPHORUS, NORMAL POTASSIUM AND SODIUM, 46.2 G PROTEIN PER 1000 kcal.

1/2 cup cooked chicken breast
1.2 ounce clams, canned chopped in juice
1/2 cup potato, boiled with skin
2 tablespoons of chicken fat
1 1/2 calcium carbonate tablets (600 mg calcium)
1/4 multiplevitamin mineral tablet
1/10 B vitamin-trace mineral tablet

418 kcal, 47% pshosporus daily needs (becomes normal phosphorus diet if bone meal, 3 tablets, is used instead of calcium carbonate).
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Tuna and rice diet

low protein, low phosphorus, normal potassium, high sodium, 44.8 g protein/1000 kcal

2 ounces tuna in water (use low salt tuna)
1/2 ounce clams, canned, chopped in juice
1/3 cup longgrain cooked rice
2 tablespoons chicken fat
1/8teaspoon salt substitute - potassium chloride
1 calcium carbonate tablet (400 mg Ca)
1/4 multiple vitamin-mineral tablet
1/10 B complex vitamin-trace mineral tablet

406 kcal, 18.2 g protein, 29.6 g fat. Use 3 bonemeal tablets instead of one calcium carbonate for normal phosphorus.
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For normal cat (no renal disease)

Tuna and rice diet:
4 ounces tuna, canned in water no salt
1 large hard boiled egg
1/2 ounce clams canned chopped in juice
1/3 cup longgrain cooked rice
1 tablespoon canola oil
3 bone meal tablets
1 multiple vitamin-mineral tablet

266 kcal, 23.8 g protein

Chicken diet

1/2 pound (raw weight) cooked boneless chicken breast
1/2 egg, hard boiled
1/2 ounce clams canned chopped in juice
4 tablespoon canola oil
3 bone meal tablets
1 multiple vitamin-mineral tablet
1/8 teaspoon salt subsitute potassium chloride

Although Pet food list states that canned foods are made by Blue Sky Pet Foods, blended tuna is made in Thailand. Solid Gold website also acknowledges this exception (although they don't specify where it is made)  so maybe it would be good to update the list with this info.

Also, my cats had some diarrhea after eating Solid Gold blended tuna, and I am not feeding that anymore. Not sure whether it was just upset tummy due to different food, but I decided just not to risk it.

Yes, but I would like to have a bit more variety of safe stuff. Nothing seems 100% safe, and they would have a better chance of survival in case the food is affected if it isn;t the only thing they were eating. Besides, this has lasted for a month now, if it lasts much longer I'll worry about whether their diet is balanced without as much variety as usual.

I am still in shock over RICE concentrate in grain free cat food. If labels can't be trusted, how do I know what is safe?

I am a vegetarian, too! First time I cooked meat it was a disaster. tough to cut. Second time I baked it in an oven covered with aluminum foil, which I took off near the end. That time it was quite tender, and I've done both chicken and rabbit that way. My 8 months old is willing to eat cooked meat, but two seven year olds won;t touch it. First time I handled meat was when I got my two older kitties, they were such skinny pitiful looking kittens so I supplemented their food with raw australian minced beef and new zealand lamb, as well as occasionally sashimi (they are crazy about tuna and octopus, but that is just a treat due to vit. B issue and raw fish).

They are willing to eat raw, but I gave that up a while ago when all three had some diarrhea and I was concerned. Might just go back to feeding raw. They love raw venison. I am just worried about supplements (hard to find good quality ones), and freshness of meat if I feed raw. I live in Hong Kong, and don't want to feed meat from China. So overseas imports are OK when they are freshly thawed but they should not be refreezed and I don;t  want to buy them after they've been sitting on supermarket shelf for a while. I am onsidering freeze dried raw, got several bags of that but I am waiting to hear some feedback about it.

Btw, got Strombeck's book from the library, can post some recipes if you want for cooked food. Seems quite simple, not sure how good it is. I got quite a few cat recipe cookbooks but most are garnage, some contain onions, and in Anitra Frazier's New Natural Cat she recommends garlic supplements which are better than onions but still controversial.