[Re Smokey,Have today emailed the Minister, Biosecurity Australia, AQIS and CSIRO Animal Health Laboratory as follows:]

Re Smokey,
Have today emailed the Minister, Biosecurity Australia, AQIS and CSIRO Animal Health Laboratory as follows:

Good afternoon,
 
An aggrieved owner has given me permission to directly quote his email to you regarding the death of his cat last Thursday following being struck down by full paralysis in November 2008. This cat was particularly badly affected, being rigidly spastic and having no volitional movement whatsoever. He has now died due to organ damage complications.
 
Hi T,
 
Smokey is gone... this morning found him, not breathing... can't function properly, I knew it was coming and yet...
 
Went to the vet, he has found that the thyroid was enlarged (he had thyroid problems and was on medication since the orijen seems to have done something). Also, he has tried to pass urine but for some reason couldn't and the quantity of urea in the blood was elevated - leading to seizures.
 
Last night he seemed a little more at peace - although he was somewhere else.
 
Am sorry - it's bad news
 
Regards,

B.  B.


Whilst I have received a reply from Tim Chapman,Executive Manager, Quarantine Operations Division, on behalf of the Minister the Hon. Tony Burke M.P. to my letter of 16 January, I feel bound to say it falls far short of addressing the requests for full review of legislation around gamma irradiation and amendment of labelling laws in relation to pet food.

It is simply not enough to say that the safety of pet food is outside of the control of AQIS.

The safety of other people's children is outside of my control but watch what happens to me if a parent momentarily loses concentration outside a school and their child runs into the path of my oncoming car.

You, DAFF/ AQIS, maybe legislatively out of reach but you are socially out of touch and as morally liable for killing this cat (and some 20 others) as Champion and their importer are legally liable and shame on you for avoiding this issue by sanctimoniously hiding behind the goodness of the Quarantine Act of 1908, of which it is unnecessary to remind me since my disclaimer on the cover page of my submission explained that I am fully aware of and support it.

It is the methods used and the lack of duty of care (which you still have, regardless) and due diligence when the decision was taken, by whoever it was, to irradiate pet foods at a MINIMUM of 50kGy. In the USA, 50kGy is the MAXIMUM allowable. And a 40% tolerance level above this amount is - well - intolerable. I know of no other protocol, scientific or otherwise which allows for a 40% tolerance level. If you do, then please point me to it and I will stand corrected.

Glad no anaesthetist I've ever needed worked to that protocol.

 

 

T C

 and I attached photo of Smokey as well.


All I get is read reports, but the pressure has to be kept up.


TCM

Australia has its own Freedom of Information Act and documents can be applied for release from DAFF files under the act. If you go to the DAFF website you will see a link explaining all this.

[DAFF Response to Government on Notice Irradiation of Food/ Pet Food]

DAFF Response to Government on Notice Irradiation of Food/ Pet Food

(Original was scanned into pdf file so copy-typed below for posting on forums.)

Dear Ms C……

Thank you for your correspondence of 16 January 2009 to the Hon. Tony Burke MP, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry about the gamma irradiation of pet food. Minister Burke has asked me as Executive Manager, Quarantine Operations Division of the Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service (AQIS) to reply on his behalf. I apologise for the delay in replying.

Australia is free of a number of animal diseases, such as foot and mouth disease, which have had major economic and environmental consequences for other countries, AQIS operates border quarantine activities with the aim of maintaining Australia’s favourable animal and plant health status.

Importers pet food products present a high risk as they may contain animal disease agents or pests that are exotic to Australia. To manage the risks posed by imported pet food, and a range of other products, AQIS is required under the Quarantine Act 1908 to regulate imports through a permit system.

Applications for import permits undergo a rigorous risk assessment by AQIS to evaluate potential quarantine risks and where such risks are identified, AQIS applies specific import conditions to manage these risks. In the case of imported pet food, heat treatment applied during manufacture is sufficient to inactivate exotic disease agents. In some instances, where the manufacturer’s processing is insufficient to meet standard heat treatment requirements, import permit applicants are offered further heat treatment of gamma radiation as a treatment option . AQIS does not compel the irradiation of imported pet food.

AQIS is required under the Quarantine Act to advise importers where it is believed that a treatment may affect quality of the imported product. To this end, AQIS advises all relevant import applicants to contact the treatment provider to obtain information on the effect any such treatment may have on their product. AQIS advised the importers of Orijen cat food in 2007 that they should seek advice on the possible effects if irradiation on their product, and only issued the import permit after the importer confirmed that they wished to proceed with irradiation.

Thank you for the information provided in your correspondence regarding the potential health impact of feeding of irradiated dry pet food in cats. AQIS’ powers to do not include the regulation of pet food safety. However, AQIS and Biosecurity Australia (BA) have considered this new information together with other scientific data and AQIS will be contacting import permit holders of pet foods to advise them of the findings of these studies.



The Department of Agriculture Fisheries and Forestry (DAFF) under which AQIS currently operates, has also liaised with the Food Industry Association of Australia (PFIAA) during the development of a voluntary industry Code of Practice for the Manufacturing and Marketing of Pet Food. DAFF understands that this Code is intended to protect pets and consumers by controlling potential hazards to animal health that might be associated with pet food

Thank you again for bringing your concerns to my attention. I trust this information is of assistance.

If you have any further queries relating to this matter, please direct them to Dr Dennis Bittisnich, Manager, Biological imports program AQIS, who can be contacted on (02) 6272 3053 or be e-mail at dennis.bittisnich@aqis.gov.au

Yours sincerely


Tim Chapman
Executive Manager
Quarantine Operations Division
AQIS


PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS RESTRICTED MATERIAL AND MAY NOT BE CROSS-POSTED (SEE BELOW)

This was the footnote on the covering email (standard Govt statement)

IMPORTANT - This message has been issued by The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry (DAFF). The information transmitted is for the use of the intended recipient only and may contain sensitive and/or legally privileged material. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening or sending them on.

Any reproduction, publication, communication, re-transmission, disclosure, dissemination or other use of the information contained in this e-mail by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. The taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. If you have received this e-mail as part of a valid mailing list and no longer want to receive a message such as this one advise the sender by return e-mail accordingly. Only e-mail correspondence which includes this footer, has been authorised by DAFF


Given that this is what my letter requested:
(EXTRACT)QUOTE:
By this letter addressed to the Minister of Agriculture Fisheries and Forestry and copied to AQIS I am requesting:

1) That a full review be carried out, without delay, of the regulations governing gamma irradiation applied to ALL foods, including pet food and animal feedstuffs released onto the Australian market whether imported or Australian grown/manufactured, on the premise that if it can do this to our animals, it could also do this to us and our children.

2) That a review of ALL available data regarding the safety of this procedure, not just studies that support the status quo, be carried out without delay.

3) That these reviews be carried out by an independent body of food scientists, nutritionists, toxicologists and appropriately informed representatives of consumer groups rather than by members of food corporations or the nuclear industry both of whom have vested interests in the outcome.

4) That the legislation, which currently does not require clear and prominent labelling of certain foods as “IRRADIATED” when they have been thus treated, be immediately amended with fast passage through Federal Parliament so that it becomes mandatory, as soon as possible, for ALL irradiated human and animal foodstuffs in Australia including individual supermarket fruit and vegetable items held in lengthy storage to be labelled “IRRADIATED” together with full disclosure of the levels of radiation used.

5) That this labelling requirement be maintained in perpetuity in the Australian marketplace regardless of what Codex Alimentarius wants to have happen worldwide eventually.

Australian consumers deserve to be recognised as intelligent people with the right to make their own decisions with regard to whether they choose to eat or feed their children and pets irradiated, genetically-modified or nanotech-engineered food rather than having it foisted upon them with neither their knowledge nor consent. I firmly believe that all such unnatural processes carried out on foods whether in their country of origin or upon import to Australia should be clearly identified by prominent and unequivocal labelling. UNQUOTE



I feel the reply has fallen somewhat short of addressing these requests. Not to mention the preceding 7 pages of information vigorously challenging the AQIS 23 Dec Notice to Industry declaring irradiation of food/pet foods to be safe.

http://www.daff.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/938949/33-08-09.pdf

I invite your comments.

Thanks
TCM

Um maybe it is still happening - in the US maybe?  Maybe a look at the consumer affairs web site would be of interest, TCM.

If there are reports on consumeraffairs pertaining to any of Champion's pet foods, please post the link. TIA

Or pertaining to anyone else's pet food yes pls post link

I think they tried to nutrolise it by covering up and shutting up those that spoke out.

Gee my spelling's atroshus tonight 

[Sent to Australian Government today]

Sent to Australian Government today


----- Original Message -----
From: T C
To: Tony.Burke.MP@aph.gov.au ; annemaree.lonergan@csiro.au ; Martyn.Jeggo@csiro.au ; Peter.Daniels@csiro.au ; colin.grant@biosecurity.gov.au ; rob.delane@daff.gov.au ; peter.liehne@daff.gov.au ; robert.langlands@daff.gov.au ; graham.turner@daff.gov.au ; mark.cloney@daff.gov.au
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 2:23 PM
Subject: Irradiation of pet food - another death


Re: Gamma Irradiated Orijen affected cats - another death

Forwarding to Dr Georgina Child and posting on all known public pet forums internationally.

Good afternoon,

It must be natural for those of you dealing with your day to day business in a commercially viable and scientific manner to become disassociated to some extent with the emotional component of the fall-out of this whole debacle.

Due to the distress of the family involved it has taken a few days for them to respond to my request for permission to quote their posts on our forum to you all verbatim. I have now obtained that permission. Here is what the family had to say about their cat Tito's last few hours and demise:

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:21 pm    Post subject: Poor sick Tito 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi everyone, I am new to this forum and extend my sympathies to all in this predicament.

My 13 y.o. grey and white moggie Tito has been sick with Orijen illness since early December. He has been in gradual decline since then and now appears to have levelled out at quadriplegia/incontinence BUT he can lift his head and eat and drink. He has been like this for about 3 weeks and I am almost at the end of my tether as the extensive care he needs is difficult to integrate into full time work, family with 2 kids and 2 dogs etc.

Despite the indignity, Tito seems quite happy in himself. He is an outside cat and insists on staying in his little crevice near the fence. To keep him dry during the recent rain I had to put an outdoor umbrella over him. I have not taken him to the vet because I don't want to upset him - he hates to be confined.

Because he would not eat any food adulterated with vitamins, milk thistle etc he was not getting any supplements until recently. Fortunately he will tolerate bovine colostrum tablets crushed in his food and I have today obtained transdermal glutiathone and methylcobalamin to see if they help at all.

My OH is of the view that Tito couldn't possibly recover from the muscle wasting and debilitation and we should have him PTS. I think that we should wait a bit longer because there have been hints of improvement lately such as he seems more alert, his appetite has definitely improved (up to 3 small meals a day from 2) and there are occasional twitches in his back legs (though they are still mostly stiff).

I suppose what I really want to know is whether any other cats of his vintage have made a recovery and if so, how long it took.


Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:43 pm    Post subject: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi again,

Sorry to report that Tito has gone rapidly downhill after eating breakfast on Saturday, that afternoon became unable to eat or drink and has not had any food or water since. When I try to syringe water into his mouth he gags as if he can't swallow.

Our usual vet is scheduled for a visit tomorrow (it's the soonest he could come) and we've cancelled our appt with Georgina as I doubt Tito will last that long.

I'm working from home today so I can keep trying to get some fluids into him, so far to no avail.

Fortunately he doesn't appear to be uncomfortable, but if he's still lingering tomorrow and the vet says he has no prospects, we will have him PTS. We love poor Tito but can't allow his suffering to continue any longer.



Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:46 am    Post subject: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you all for your kind wishes. Tito is gone. The vet thinks it was probably kidney or liver failure. I suspect the kidneys because the urine in the nappy was very dark.

We will miss him so much. He was the calmest most placid cat who used to let my then 2 year old daughter carry him around without a scratch. I suppose that's why he coped so well with being sick. Our kids have known him all their lives. He is now buried in a spot where we are about to plant a lemon and a lime, right near our old dog Dolly.

When I start to regret not taking a more interventionist approach with his illness, I remember he would have hated that. Having been a feral kitten, he was a strictly outdoors only cat, and would panic if in the house, car etc.

Without Orijen we would have definitely had a few more good years with him.

I think that both Orijen and AQIS have a duty of care in this situation. Any indemnification of AQIS by Orijen is between them alone and would not prevent action being taken against AQIS.

Best of luck to all who are still nursing their sick ones. We will be thinking of you often.





Thank you for reading these posts and I hope they have reached your hearts and not just your minds.



Please, please, please place a ban on all further irradiation of pet food products. Cats in mixed cat/dog households just snacking a little from the dogs' Orijen without themselves ever having eaten cat Orijen, have been affected, so it's not enough to just ban cat food irradiation. And you don't know what it might be doing to dogs' kidneys, livers, brains just because there are no visible effects.

Please revisit my Government on Notice document and read the Public Citizen "Bad Taste" article by Mark Worth. It's a long article but rewards careful scrutiny. Concerns about gamma irradiation of foods have been swept aside for years.

The Cassidy et al. study shows that it has been known since the 1990s that cats fed irradiated diets can develop paralysis and die.

No one disputes the necessity for Australia's foreign-pathogen-free status to be maintained. If it's not good enough in the state it hits our shores, and the manufacturer won't comply with AQIS approved production protocols, send the stuff back.

We don't need it, we don't want it.

We have plenty of good fresh Australian produce and foods produced under approved conditions.


I make no apology for my passion. My cat is crippled as a result of eating this food. Someone/some several is/are responsible and we owners feel we are just in the middle as the hot potato is tossed around over our heads.

I am speaking to lawyers, I am speaking to media, we are speaking to activist and advocacy groups. This is gaining momentum and we will be recognised and vindicated and we will be fully recompensed for our financial losses if not for our emotional trauma.

This could have been avoided. That it was not is unforgiveable.

Thank you

T C

Yes and at the Rosehill Pet Expo on the weekend of 7/8/9 November just two weeks before the recall (when CLEARLY Champion and their importer knew there was a problem because their visit down here was in November), retailers with stalls at the show were handing out free sample bags of Orijen dog food.

Wouldn't you have thought that the importer/distributor would have been onto all his customers telling them to hold off? That they needed to look into this a bit more deeply, there seemed to be a problem with cats so let's just be a bit low-key until we know more and whether any dogs start to present with problems? According to one practitioner I know, there was one single sample bag of cat food there when she stopped by. Whether it was just for display or whether all the rest had been handed out we don't know.

What is certain is that some cats have had their kidney function affected by this and we don't know what long term effects might occur in paralysed cats currently testing well for kidney function, such as my cat.

What is uncertain is that whilst most of the effects in cats are clearly visible there might be invisible effects in dogs occurring right now, internal organ effects or tumours in the early stages.Carcinogenic compounds called cyclobutanones, which occur nowhere in nature,  have been detected in irradiated foods.

If dogs did succumb to organ disease or cancer some way down the track it would be unlikely that a connection, if there is one, could ever be made due to the insidious and invisible nature of these types of effects which take longer to manifest.

What is clear is that there are many, many pet owners out there still unaware of this whole issue. The pet supplies place a few km south west of me where I bought the nappies 2 or 3 weeks back told me they still had customers coming in asking for Orijen. I suggested they put up some signage with an explanation and warning that if they had any left to discontinue feeding it in mixed dog/cat households.

Instead of leaving it to disgusted and distressed former customers and vet nurses to run around telling retailers wouldn't you have thought that after scraping every last dirty coin of profit off the floor the distributor would have done the decent thing and spent some of it having some flyers/posters printed and taken them round to his customers? After all he could always go whining after Champion for the money like he did for the cost of the irradiation.

What I want to know is WHERE IS ROLAND LOBO AND WHY AM I DOING HIS JOB FOR HIM  ??

[Here's why the Orijen "Compassion Fund" has been re-named by Australian affected cat owners the Horrorjen Compassionless Underfund.]

Here's why the Orijen "Compassion Fund" has been re-named by Australian affected cat owners the Horrorjen Compassionless Underfund.

My expenditure to date: (Australian Dollars)
Vet consults/tests:     $526.00
Vet prescribed meds:  $394.30
Non-vet practitioners: $794.00 (acupuncture, physiotherapy)
Supplements:             $242.65
Ancillaries:                 $257.77
TOTAL to DATE          $2144.72 and I'm only 2 months into it.

Their allowable paid: Vet consults & meds $ 920.30
                             Supplements           $100.00
                             Ancillaries               $100.00
                            TOTAL PAYABLE      $1120.30

As you can see, there is over $1000 shortfall already.
Given that this can take 6-8 months at least to run its course, assuming your cat makes a full or partial recovery, and having regard to the fact that most of the high veterinary costs are in the initial stages, there is still a long way to go before the spending stops. I am now stocked up with supplements for a further two months. As cats rehabilitate, the non-vet treatments can start to be spaced out with much of the rehab being done by the owner between visits.
Still however a long way to go before the spending stops in order to give a cat the best possible chance of recovery, and we are finding that the older cats are taking far longer. My cat is 10.

This fund is said to have been decided in consultation with vets in Sydney treating the cats. If these are the vets I am thinking of they do their own acupuncture and the more alternative treatments. Some of us are using our own conventional vets and selected specialists. So this was quite possibly based on an unusual veterinary set-up and certainly well in advance of anyone knowing how long the whole recovery process could take and what types of ancillary products would need to be bought. Very little anticipation of the need for cages/pens or incontinence sheets and nappies.

Champion's example of how to fill in the form gives the example of a confining pen, cost $40. I don't know what world they are living in but the cheapest confining pen here is around $65  and if you need a full cage because there are other (healthy) cats in the house who keep setting upon the weaker one, that's around $110-150. Whoops that's swallowed up your ancillary allowance, nothing left for pee pads. They are allowing for feeding syringes. Feeding syringes!!! They cost diddly squat and most vets will give you two or three for free anyway.

If they have based their estimates on Edmonton cost of living prices, they need to remember that Sydney is the 19th most expensive city in the world to live, just four places behind New York, and the Canadian cities rank around 85th. It would be interesting to compare some prices of say, petrol, over the counter health supplements, other day to day expenditures.

Once again, a failure to research properly and think things through.

Australians are sometimes accused of having a slack. "she'll be right mate" attitude. We've got nothing on this mob, they make us look like Einsteins.

[facts]

  It seems that I had read somewhere of a couple of cats, that were not of Australia, exhibiting similar symptoms after eating the Orijen. Does anyone know if there has been any recent news about these kitties?

Four actually.
THAT WE KNOW OF.
One in Malaysia (deceased)
One in UK (possibly 2)
One in USA (possibly 2 - unsure if 4th in UK or US - Maxymia has been following this more closely and can give us a full summary)

I've been in close touch with the owner of the one in USA that Champion demanded retract her statements and threatened with litigation if she didn't. Her cat is still jumping at shadows and behaving strangely and showing some wobbliness.

Amazing isn't it?

That the ones with Australian blood on their hands are the ones threatening litigation.

What are they so afraid of if their food is so bl**dy perfect?




Champion are saying next time they go into any market they'll research it properly.

Can you imagine the impact of say, a brain surgeon maiming 87 people, killing 15 of them and saying - "next time I operate I'll make sure I've researched the hippocampus properly before I go in."





They did not understand what they were doing and did not research enough. This is what Peter Muhlenfeld has said. That they should have researched more.

I think they should have worked with an experienced importer of good pedigree who knew what he was doing or knew who to ask to find out instead of some unheard of tiny home-based operator evidently with no experience and certainly with no profile that I have been able to uncover - yet.

They should have stayed closer to their importer and their product as it entered its new market. Instead they express surprise when he presents them with the bill for irradiation. Which wasn't $10000 for a container by the way and there was not just one shipment.

Because they want to keep retracting and retracing their steps and changing their story, they think they can bully others into doing the same.

Well not me.

I'm not afraid of them. They can threaten me all they like.

I will keep reiterating the facts over and over loud and clear on forums, blogs and to the media right around the world until they are shamed into paying me full compensation for crippling my cat.

Thank you Perseus. We are very busy as you know and not just with our cats.

If I didn't have a cat to nurse and rehabilitate I would be on a plane over there and on their doorstep demanding answers, seriously. I would turn up every day until they frogmarched me off their premises then I would find a Canadian lawyer to uncover what they have to hide because it would be much easier to litigate from there.

However I am very satisfied to be able to take care of my cat and work at it from here, it will just take a little longer perhaps.

and the weather's much nicer

Yes indeed it is condescending.

And indeed yes why does he seem to think the tiny fraction that Australia represented of their total market is relevant in this discussion?

It shows that that is what is in the back of their mind. It was just a small part of our business, just a few cats, we're out of the market now, it doesn't really matter. We'll set up a fund to show our major markets how caring we are but in reality they will never realise that hardly any affected cat owners will qualify for the full $2000 because there is so little vets can do anyway. OK, Next?

I'm very wary of companies that go on and on about being a "family company". Where are the independent checks and balances that exist in a company where ones primary allegiance is to your job and doing it properly rather than to the blood relative sitting next to you? Blood is so much thicker than water and it is so much easier to not have to be accountable to your work colleagues in open forum. I think major corporations are often less than honest in their dealings as well, I think of Big Tobacco and Big Pharma, however their board of directors, their shareholders and public scrutiny eventually catches up with them and you have that security of knowing you can examine their accounts and their reports to the stock market at any time, information of this nature has to be in the public domain. They would no more deal with some back street little importer who had no idea what they were doing than fly to the moon. They would no more enter a market without knowing its regulatory procedures inside out, then issue a statement months after some terrible debacle, like poisoning the population they are there to serve, saying that in future they would make sure they understood their markets fully before entering them, than fly to the moon - now would they?

And they wouldn't be registering on chat forums to hawk their spin either.

No public corporation would last five minutes exhibiting such unprofessional behaviour with some sort of pride, as if it were to their credit.

Are we supposed to feel sorry for them that they are some little Mom and Pop operation mixing up kibble in their kitchen?

Not so. Some Mom and Pop operations somehow manage to find, or are sponsored with, SEVEN MILLION DOLLARS to build a fully enclosed processing plant. So fully enclosed perhaps Pop forgets to peep inside now and again to see what's going on? Some Mom and Pop operations can find sponsorship from nutritionists in their state government to develop products that promote the "fresh farm produce" of their state. Oh and  a few rendered products and meals preserved with BHA and BHT. And a few fresh farm suppliers, perhaps a nice farming family down in the valley who happen to just forget to mention they've changed the screen size on their filters so the bones might be a bit bigger this time, guys.  Oops sorry, think about it for a little while around the family dinner table and then do a recall.

And we appreciate all your support Perseus thank you.

This is alarmimg. How on earth can Champion ask these people to retract their comments without seeing if they are viable. Obvoiusly thinking about their hip pockets than our beloved animals. I find this disgusting from a company that claims to care for animals.

We need to get the word out that there are a few unconfirmed cases and if anyone suspects their cat is or has showed these symptoms we need to contact them.

Being from Australia I don't really know which forums here are popular. Can someone please help me with this. If this is happening elsewhere I can't sit back and do nothing (like Champion) knowing what these poor cats go through

Maxymia, there are people here in the US that can get the word out through other forums and blogs, but we'd like to have the content written by one of the affected kitty owners on what we should be posting, with permission to cross post.  If you can PM me something then we can get started on it right away.

To all our Australian friends, we will do whatever we can to support you and your dear kitties, and getting the word out about Champion's response to this tragedy is where it will hit them hard.

As you know I am working on this and it is almost complete

TCM, I downloaded the audio and listened to (most) of it but I can't hear you on it....can you let me know about how many minutes into it you're on?  I'd really like to hear this.  Thanks!  PS:  I have a new respect for reincarnation now.

I'm first up.
Are you listening to the correct programme?
FEB 12 Programme 216

Exactly Kaffe

And in my phone call of 19 December to Peter Muhlenfeld that is what he said, we didn't know it was irradiated, the first we heard of it was when we got a bill for $10000 (which changed during the course of the conversation to $12000 then $17000)and I said so you didn't know? No we didn't .
And I said that it seemed strange to me that a company producing a biologically appropriate holistic cat food would allow it to be irradiated, it just didn't align with their ethic surely?

And he leapt on that with "You know, you're right! It doesn't go with our ethic " Or words to that effect.

He had me convinced there that night.

Now of course we hear different stories - it keeps changing doesn't it?

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive.....